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hello and Allah needle on solo scoffs of

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dip moments been to an at low so now to

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skeptics on for we to stop and katie

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schneider moving from RC Connor we may

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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it's nice to be with you again Richard

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Saunders here from Sydney Australia it's

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skeptic Zone episode number 122 for the

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eighteenth of februari 2011 on today's

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show we have Maynard spooky action very

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spooky this week he talks to this really

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strange guy he's discovered well it's

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brian dunning I'll level with you it's

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brian dunning may not speak to Brian

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during now this interview was actually

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recorded last year and it was this

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interview that brought our attention to

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Maynard and then dr. reach interviewed

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main art and the rest is history because

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my heart is now a valuable member of the

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skeptic zone team but this is a really

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good interview with Brian Dunning very

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interesting what makes Brian Dunning

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tick what makes Brian Dunning tick why

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does he do skip toid week after week

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what is his motivation well may not asks

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all the hard questions and that

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interviews coming up very soon and thank

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you may not thank you may not for this

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interview if you want to find out a

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little bit more about may not visit

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Maynard dot com au also on today's show

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we check out a new drinking skeptically

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here in Sydney a new sort of skeptics in

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the pub in the inner west suburb of

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Newtown Jason Brown otherwise known as

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drunken madman has thrown together a new

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meeting a new social meeting and we go

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along for a drink or two and to wrap up

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the show we have the think tank with our

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good friends Diane Joanne been amoo Iran

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so give dr. H E and Jason Brown myself

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I'll run down to the club down the end

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of the street have a nice Chinese dinner

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and discuss interesting issues now I

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really have to thank listener ery met

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leg from Japan he's living in Japan at

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the moment who sent me some power

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balance bracelets in the post from a

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vending machine for the princely sum of

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about four dollars each in Japan you can

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buy your own power balance wristband

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which is identical to the real thing the

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real thing yeah well they're identical

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to what they sell as the real thing if

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you know what I mean and he also sent me

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some other wrist bands that don't even

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bother with the hologram they had just

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simply silicon bands with claims about

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strength and flexibility and health and

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all this sort of stuff amazing now I've

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put a link to Eric's music interesting

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music he's got on iTunes on the

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newsletter this week but now it's time

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for some nice old grey tea pot while we

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here's my not spooky action at the

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distance

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ladies and gentlemen there's a lot of

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people out there doing some whoo there's

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a lot of people out there on the side of

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science but in that science field we

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have a man who is at this very moment

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Skyclad in his hot tub somewhere in

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orange county in the u.s. it's brian

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dunning from skepta at hi Brian how are

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you and not only just at this very

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moment at virtually all moments you

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mentioned your hot tub a lot you're the

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only skeptic I know who has a 24-hour

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hot tub going there I don't mention it a

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lot i mentioned it like once entry

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somehow it has become my trademark I'm

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all in favor of hanging out with great

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people with neat philosophy even running

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around naked in the forest with them

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especially if their chicks are hot it

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has become your trademark and look you

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did put out the coal to any pagan girls

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that they're welcome to join you in the

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hot tub Skyclad would you like to

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explain what skyclad is for our non

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pagan friends well I certainly wouldn't

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say no to that yes skyclad is a pagan

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term for basically naked every week you

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do a little podcast about well how would

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you describe it I'm trying to find

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things that people generally believe

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that aren't true that's my ideal show

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subject and I try to always find some

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perspective that that most people have

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not heard what no matter if they're an

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experienced skeptic or someone who's

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brand new to this I try to find

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something that makes it interesting for

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everyone how did you get involved in

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skeptical thinking actually by listening

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to podcasts I had been someone who like

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many people first was introduced to the

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idea when I was younger watching James

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Randi on on the Johnny Carson show here

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in the United States it wasn't until

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much later really only about five years

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ago that I discovered there such a thing

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as podcasts that I learned that there

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was actually an organized you know

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groups of skeptics per se one question I

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find everything about the skeptics group

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is that how do you go when you have

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people's belief in faith I like a lot of

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skeptics can be atheists but a lot of

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them have religious beliefs as well how

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do you draw that line between demanding

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scientific proof and not insulting

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someone you ask a lot of questions there

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there is no such thing as the person who

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is completely skeptical about everyone I

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don't think that you should demand that

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everyone be completely perfectly

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skeptical or completely perfectly right

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or

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you know grounded in rationality however

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you want to describe it because nobody

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is what's important is that people

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recognize what's the right direction to

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go they recognize what's real what the

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benefits are of understanding what's

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real and that's what that's what's truly

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important getting started on the right

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path what is reasonable wandering and

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perception stop and sort of crackpot

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theories start that's a great question

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and that's that's a conversation that I

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try to have whenever I meet a

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psychologist is there any way that you

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can define when someone has normal

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healthy delusions like you and I and

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everyone else has and when they are

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actually diagnose ibly crazy what's the

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dividing line for example you and I can

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walk into a room and if we have a pimple

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on the middle of the nose we are certain

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that everyone in the room is looking at

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that pimple that's a delusion that's not

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true nobody gives pardon me nobody cares

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about the pimple on our nose but we

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think everyone's looking at it we're a

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little bit diluted that's not unhealthy

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that's not a problem but for some people

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their delusion governs every minute of

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every day they become a danger to

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themselves and to other people they lose

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their jobs they lose their interpersonal

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relationships somewhere everyone's on

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that spectrum somewhere there's a

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dividing line what was the dividing line

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that turned you into someone who wanted

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to be earn a living as a skeptic or try

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to take down that pub what motivates you

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to go out there and basically you know

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mess up people's Lego blocks when

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they're really happy with their delusion

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yeah I mean when I got started that was

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pretty much what I was doing I was

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debunking I kind of quickly learned that

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that's not healthy that doesn't do

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anyone any good their beliefs are

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cherished beliefs usually whether it's a

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belief in some sort of energy healing or

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whether it's a belief in ghosts people

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tend to take those beliefs pretty

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seriously and they and they treasure

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them if you're just help taking their

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ghosts away you're not doing them any

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favor what's important is to give them

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something better something that they can

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take and use in their daily life and be

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happier and be a better person for it a

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lot of people also believe that there's

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strong conspiracies of larger groups

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like people think that there is a this

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Big Pharma big pharmaceutical companies

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that are keeping us ill because that is

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how they make their money by selling

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medicine

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where people like yourself and other

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podcasts like the science-based medicine

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podcast believe that there's big placebo

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there's an industry based around selling

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something that really doesn't work yeah

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you can you can certainly call it that

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yeah Big Big Pharma big oil big food big

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toxins there sickens a conspiracy theory

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for just about everyone if you if you

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promote the scientific perspective

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you're pretty much one of the bad guys

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one of the points you go on about is if

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you are trying to present a program that

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is is factually based the fact that it's

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factually based doesn't make it

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interesting you actually still got to

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make it a good show do you think some

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people fail because you know the x-files

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was a great show because they know the

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stories and the dynamic of the

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characters and they had really

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interesting wacky plots and you could

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have could you have done that

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interesting a show with using facts uh

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yes you could have the x-files could

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have been completely fact-based it would

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have been much much harder for the

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writers to come up with you see that

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that's why shows like I don't know what

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you have in Australia but we've got

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Oprah Winfrey here Oprah is omnipresent

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very much like you know supernatural

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being herself okay she promotes anything

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that's sensational that's pretty easy to

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do because you can pick up any book

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magazine and find something sensational

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what I would have to do is we have to

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put the sensation through the reality

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filter we have to filter out 99% of it

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that's not true but if you work hard

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enough you can find what's sensational

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and what's true and then you have

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something that's as interesting and fun

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as the x-files but it's actually based

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on good information and doesn't teach

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people to think badly about the way the

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universe works Brian Dunning as a

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broadcaster is a something is there one

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shooter science that really pushes your

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button is the one that really tends to

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annoy you and you have trouble holding

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back whenever you encounter it go back

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to skep tide episode 001 and that's

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exactly what motivated that one and that

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was on New Age energy the way the word

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energy is used in pop culture really

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rubs me the wrong way because it's used

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in a completely meaningless way

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ninety-nine percent of the time is it

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possible that quantum theory could open

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the door to some unexplained phenomenon

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that we don't know about yet

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that could explain those energies well

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certainly but but what you're talking

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about is something that's not known yet

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and that's part of what's so frustrating

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is people like Deepak Chopra and so

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forth who are always trying to promote

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is it supernatural and paranormal they

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often use quantum theory supports this

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as as an excuse because they don't know

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what the heck they're talking about you

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and I don't know what the heck they're

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talking about and so they just try to

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use quantum theory quote-unquote as an

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excuse to explain any claim they want to

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make is it possible that sometimes being

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too rational could maybe close your mind

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to serendipitous discoveries well I

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think the more rational you are the more

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open your mind is an open mind is

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someone who is open to having their mind

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changed and if you're rational good

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information will change your mind if

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you're irrational you're going to cling

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to whatever you want to cling to and

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good information will not change your

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mind brian is it just a touch of

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irrationality in your life I know you've

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said on the air that you know whenever

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you think you're getting a cold you

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might take some extra vitamin C even

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though the evidence doesn't really

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support that well what do you what's

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your personal whoo oh gosh you put me on

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the spot you know that's happened to me

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00:11:54,370 --> 00:11:52,280
in a lot of sceptile episodes that I've

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done I've got I've got a bum knee for

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00:11:58,300 --> 00:11:56,930
example and I always thought oh my knee

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will start hurting when the weather's

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going to change I learned that that's

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not true and once you understand what's

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happening there suddenly the effect

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disappears and you don't notice that

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anymore the vitamin vitamin C was

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another one I grew up my entire life

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believing that if taking vitamin C will

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reduce the severity of a colder or

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prevent it from happening and and that

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doesn't that's not true either it

305
00:12:20,350 --> 00:12:18,800
happens all the time that I learn the

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facts some of the topics you've looked

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00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:21,800
at that I've found very personally

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interesting our rods now rods are

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supposed to be creatures that live in

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the sky that we can't normally see but

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some single couple charged device

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cameras can capture them do you think

313
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,680
there's any evidence whatsoever that

314
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these creatures exist sure those

315
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:37,250
photographs and their it's pretty poor

316
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quality evidence this is one of those

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00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:41,750
stories that the explanation is really

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interesting a lot of your listeners

319
00:12:48,010 --> 00:12:45,560
probably know this already but if you

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picture an insect flying he's moving

321
00:12:52,420 --> 00:12:49,700
through the air and he's beating his

322
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wings and if you imagine the path traced

323
00:12:56,020 --> 00:12:54,320
by the edge of each wing it's going to

324
00:12:59,290 --> 00:12:56,030
be a wavy line like a

325
00:13:01,690 --> 00:12:59,300
sine wave now if the frame of film lasts

326
00:13:03,460 --> 00:13:01,700
for say you know one tenth of a second

327
00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:03,470
and the insect moves a certain distance

328
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and beats as wings a certain number of

329
00:13:10,540 --> 00:13:08,120
times you're going to see in that film a

330
00:13:12,940 --> 00:13:10,550
solid wavy line and it's going to look

331
00:13:15,490 --> 00:13:12,950
like a big long worm with a with a big

332
00:13:17,560 --> 00:13:15,500
undulating wing and that's exactly what

333
00:13:20,290 --> 00:13:17,570
these rods are it's basically just

334
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insects and with the lighting conditions

335
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:21,920
and the camera settings are just right

336
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it's going to look like what people call

337
00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:26,150
a rod if you didn't know any better you

338
00:13:29,380 --> 00:13:27,560
might think wow that picture is pretty

339
00:13:30,820 --> 00:13:29,390
compelling but once you understand

340
00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:30,830
what's happening it's one of those cases

341
00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:33,260
where gee that's really cool the science

342
00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:35,600
is more interesting than the fantasy and

343
00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:36,800
you don't always deal with the

344
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:38,480
supernatural Brian I'm one of your

345
00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:40,610
interesting episodes I'm George was you

346
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:42,710
covered spy radio stations these are

347
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:44,090
these stations around the world that are

348
00:13:47,860 --> 00:13:46,010
just saying weird numbers often in

349
00:13:50,650 --> 00:13:47,870
eastern old Eastern Bloc countries or

350
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:50,660
Russia and you discovered that will some

351
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:52,010
of the might be spies stations but

352
00:13:55,570 --> 00:13:53,360
there's many reasons for those weeds

353
00:13:57,250 --> 00:13:55,580
shortwave broadcasts someone suggested

354
00:13:59,890 --> 00:13:57,260
it to me it sounded really interesting

355
00:14:01,420 --> 00:13:59,900
and I started asking people about these

356
00:14:03,340 --> 00:14:01,430
and people are saying oh yeah I've heard

357
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:03,350
of those some people were suggesting

358
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:05,090
things like other ocean buoys that

359
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:07,250
periodically transmit their data or

360
00:14:11,290 --> 00:14:09,650
their you know some sort of a seismic

361
00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:11,300
meter on some mountain side somewhere

362
00:14:15,340 --> 00:14:13,160
there's all kinds of possible

363
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:15,350
explanations but it turns out that in

364
00:14:19,390 --> 00:14:17,090
the case of many of these numbers

365
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:19,400
stations as they're called they actually

366
00:14:24,670 --> 00:14:22,490
are being used by nations and not just

367
00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:24,680
Eastern Bloc nations by the United

368
00:14:30,490 --> 00:14:27,260
States by Great Britain for transmitting

369
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:30,500
instructions to spies overseas it's hard

370
00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:32,090
to tell what percentage of that is the

371
00:14:35,290 --> 00:14:33,950
spas in which percentage is just keeping

372
00:14:37,420 --> 00:14:35,300
the frequency open because we did we

373
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:37,430
don't know that do we yeah no we don't

374
00:14:41,290 --> 00:14:39,170
but there for example there's one out of

375
00:14:43,930 --> 00:14:41,300
Russia called the buzzer that's been

376
00:14:46,220 --> 00:14:43,940
just transmitting a buzzing tone for

377
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:46,230
something like 40 years now

378
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:51,450
I think there's only once or twice have

379
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:53,490
they ever broadcast any data on it so

380
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:54,720
yeah you're exactly right they're just

381
00:14:58,430 --> 00:14:56,610
keeping that station open in case they

382
00:14:59,630 --> 00:14:58,440
need it listen to feedback must be

383
00:15:01,580 --> 00:14:59,640
fairly interesting cause if you've got

384
00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:01,590
active forums on your side you get some

385
00:15:04,850 --> 00:15:03,000
pretty hot button topics and you do

386
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:04,860
touch politics you've spoken about it a

387
00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:06,480
bit and things like that Sarah Palin

388
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:08,700
what does really had the poo being flung

389
00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:10,530
at you Brian any time you attack

390
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:12,000
something that people are making money

391
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:15,330
at and that's a multi-level marketing

392
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:18,090
network marketing plans detoxification

393
00:15:23,450 --> 00:15:21,690
schemes things like wheatgrass juice any

394
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:23,460
kind of alternative medicine that people

395
00:15:27,890 --> 00:15:25,980
are selling any time people are selling

396
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:27,900
something that's when all the people who

397
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:30,090
sell it they come to my website and they

398
00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:32,160
post these horrible messages about how

399
00:15:36,220 --> 00:15:34,500
evil I am and they post a lot of

400
00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:36,230
advertisements to their products and my

401
00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:38,220
moderators on my site take the

402
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:39,870
advertisements out but we leave

403
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:42,210
everything else in so that's that's what

404
00:15:46,130 --> 00:15:44,160
it really gets gets under people's crawl

405
00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:46,140
when you when you attack their income I

406
00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:47,820
have no problem doing that by the way

407
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:49,470
when someone is making money by ripping

408
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:52,530
people off by basically selling fraud I

409
00:15:56,390 --> 00:15:54,120
have no problem calling them out on it

410
00:15:58,010 --> 00:15:56,400
constantly I'm talking to people who are

411
00:15:59,990 --> 00:15:58,020
seeing phenomenon and then claim that

412
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:00,000
obscene phenomenon and they get angry

413
00:16:03,770 --> 00:16:01,710
with skeptics because skeptics will not

414
00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:03,780
accept a large amount of eyewitness

415
00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:06,990
accounts of UFOs or of ghosts and they

416
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:08,430
will not accept a large body of

417
00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:10,080
eyewitness accounts people are

418
00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:12,360
supposedly seeing something Brian yeah

419
00:16:17,060 --> 00:16:14,670
well I'm sure they are I think skeptics

420
00:16:19,850 --> 00:16:17,070
are just as interested in those stories

421
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:19,860
as we are in testable evidence the

422
00:16:23,510 --> 00:16:21,930
problem is that a story that someone

423
00:16:25,820 --> 00:16:23,520
tells someone saw something or whatever

424
00:16:28,310 --> 00:16:25,830
that is they all we have is just an

425
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:28,320
anecdotal report from them unfortunately

426
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:30,210
we can't test that we can't try to

427
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:33,210
reproduce that a statement a personal

428
00:16:38,690 --> 00:16:36,240
story is not testable evidence and so as

429
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:38,700
interesting as it might be there's just

430
00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:40,350
it just doesn't leave us anywhere to go

431
00:16:44,780 --> 00:16:42,600
and so we can't use it it's not a matter

432
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:44,790
of not liking your tour not wanting it

433
00:16:49,070 --> 00:16:46,410
to be true it's it's just that it's

434
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:49,080
useless as far as being testable

435
00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:51,330
scientific evidence goes Brian Dunning

436
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:52,500
you've been doing this for many years

437
00:16:54,980 --> 00:16:53,490
now do you think the world is getting

438
00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:54,990
more rational or we're getting more

439
00:16:58,730 --> 00:16:56,910
kooky oh I don't think it's going

440
00:16:59,430 --> 00:16:58,740
anywhere i think i think i'm going to be

441
00:17:01,560 --> 00:16:59,440
in business

442
00:17:03,630 --> 00:17:01,570
long time what's the best rational way

443
00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:03,640
to see a path through in this odd world

444
00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:06,550
we live in Brian be positive don't burn

445
00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:08,500
bridges don't get people mad at you

446
00:17:12,390 --> 00:17:10,660
don't annoy people don't go around being

447
00:17:14,130 --> 00:17:12,400
holier-than-thou and acting like you're

448
00:17:15,689 --> 00:17:14,140
the only one who's right and you're the

449
00:17:17,460 --> 00:17:15,699
only one who knows anything because

450
00:17:21,329 --> 00:17:17,470
you're not do you think richard dawkins

451
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:21,339
suffers from that sometimes well he's

452
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:23,890
he's in another boat I mean he's he's

453
00:17:29,550 --> 00:17:26,770
basically I mean this respectfully but

454
00:17:31,620 --> 00:17:29,560
he's basically a sideshow he's a atheist

455
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:31,630
activist he's not out there trying to

456
00:17:35,820 --> 00:17:32,890
make friends or making any difference

457
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:35,830
his work is really controversial in it

458
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:38,530
sells nobody changes their mind nobody

459
00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:40,000
changes their mind from listening to

460
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:42,760
Richard Dawkins but from my show I think

461
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:44,770
I do change minds because I don't go out

462
00:17:49,530 --> 00:17:47,290
there and attack people and I don't try

463
00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:49,540
to present anything in a confrontational

464
00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:51,670
manner with your show or with anybody's

465
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:54,100
show is to look it up for yourself if

466
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:55,360
you don't believe you're hearing

467
00:17:58,860 --> 00:17:56,890
something on the radio look it up go

468
00:18:00,750 --> 00:17:58,870
online to check a couple of sources go

469
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:00,760
to a library no no no you should only

470
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:02,530
listen to some podcaster and you should

471
00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:04,450
believe everything he tells you okay

472
00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:05,980
I'll write that down I'll talk to that

473
00:18:09,870 --> 00:18:08,380
Brian Brian Dunning from sceptile thank

474
00:18:11,970 --> 00:18:09,880
you for joining us today and look I'm

475
00:18:14,460 --> 00:18:11,980
sure you've got a long history ahead of

476
00:18:29,890 --> 00:18:14,470
you investigating whew thank you very

477
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:32,510
hi this is michael cruz from the

478
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:33,570
committee for the advancement of

479
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:35,490
scientific skepticism at the center for

480
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,890
inquiry canada Cass is committed to

481
00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:39,360
critically examining scientific

482
00:18:43,730 --> 00:18:41,280
technological and medical claims in the

483
00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:43,740
public forum across Canada working with

484
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:46,140
our expert advisors local cfi branches

485
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:47,910
and other skeptical groups Cass

486
00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:49,470
confronts the peddlers as pseudoscience

487
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:52,040
with evidence-based scientific inquiry

488
00:18:56,630 --> 00:18:54,330
2010 has been a watershed here for the

489
00:18:58,520 --> 00:18:56,640
sceptical movement in Canada and in 2011

490
00:19:00,860 --> 00:18:58,530
cast will continue fighting bad science

491
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:00,870
in the media and the government if you

492
00:19:03,410 --> 00:19:02,130
would like to become involved in the

493
00:19:04,940 --> 00:19:03,420
fight to promote critical thinking in

494
00:19:06,470 --> 00:19:04,950
canada or if you have a concern about

495
00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:06,480
the spread of pseudoscience in the

496
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:08,700
Canadian media please contact us at

497
00:19:14,330 --> 00:19:11,610
casts at cfi canada CA you can also

498
00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:14,340
follow us on twitter at cfi casts and on

499
00:19:19,220 --> 00:19:16,380
facebook at cass at center for inquiry

500
00:19:30,899 --> 00:19:19,230
canada casts fighting pseudoscience

501
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:34,270
skeptics in the pub is a hit all around

502
00:19:39,549 --> 00:19:36,799
the world with local skeptics finding

503
00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:39,559
like-minded people in a relaxing scene I

504
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:41,809
was delighted to find out that there is

505
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:44,210
a new skeptics in the pub a second

506
00:19:50,110 --> 00:19:46,370
skeptics in the pub in Sydney Australia

507
00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:50,120
in the inner west suburb of New Towns I

508
00:19:56,110 --> 00:19:54,230
went along to find out more I really you

509
00:19:58,810 --> 00:19:56,120
know him you know him from the think

510
00:20:02,200 --> 00:19:58,820
tank it's not much and from me to watch

511
00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:02,210
of course fame and fortune of yours it's

512
00:20:06,159 --> 00:20:04,130
drunk and mad man and you have a nice

513
00:20:07,539 --> 00:20:06,169
red I do I have a lovely red a cold

514
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:07,549
weather read from New Zealand it's very

515
00:20:13,870 --> 00:20:12,890
nice yes delicious excellent now you're

516
00:20:15,940 --> 00:20:13,880
the you're the guy who's really

517
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:15,950
responsible for these other yes my fault

518
00:20:22,899 --> 00:20:20,559
yes yeah I figured Sydney had enough

519
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:22,909
social skeptics to have a second

520
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:25,010
drinking night in the pub with skeptics

521
00:20:30,399 --> 00:20:27,200
i started this up and you know we had

522
00:20:32,289 --> 00:20:30,409
what six the first time and now we're a

523
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,299
dozen last time around were of water by

524
00:20:35,799 --> 00:20:34,400
nine in the evenings you know we're

525
00:20:37,299 --> 00:20:35,809
going around the night is yet young yeah

526
00:20:38,919 --> 00:20:37,309
yeah we know there's a few up the road

527
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:38,929
out that pub quiz at the moment they'll

528
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:41,330
be rocking down later on right so yeah

529
00:20:45,310 --> 00:20:43,520
it's quite qin us and the pub we're in

530
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:45,320
at the moment is for our listeners the

531
00:20:49,539 --> 00:20:47,450
town hall hotel in newtown on king

532
00:20:51,070 --> 00:20:49,549
street which is just right across the

533
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:51,080
street from the a detail state it's

534
00:20:54,399 --> 00:20:52,640
right next to knee turn station near the

535
00:20:56,950 --> 00:20:54,409
same side right across the street from

536
00:20:58,930 --> 00:20:56,960
the Zanzibar and just on the corner of n

537
00:21:01,299 --> 00:20:58,940
more Odin in kingstree and what is your

538
00:21:02,830 --> 00:21:01,309
plan on what dates canal listen look

539
00:21:04,570 --> 00:21:02,840
forward to coming here and enjoying a

540
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:04,580
drink currently we're here on the tenth

541
00:21:09,070 --> 00:21:06,530
Tuesday of every month though it is hang

542
00:21:10,539 --> 00:21:09,080
on the TT favorite so there's a Tuesday

543
00:21:13,299 --> 00:21:10,549
in the month as a teen in the number

544
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:13,309
yeah it's the first one yes right so

545
00:21:18,220 --> 00:21:15,890
once it sees the second the second

546
00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:18,230
Tuesday usually and sometimes it can be

547
00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:20,360
the third Tuesday

548
00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:23,900
okay I wanted it to kind of be unusually

549
00:21:28,330 --> 00:21:27,049
spaced it is a teen 40s now people can't

550
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:28,340
possibly remember that and I'm sure they

551
00:21:32,530 --> 00:21:31,010
can where can they run to with their web

552
00:21:35,049 --> 00:21:32,540
browser to find out more you can go to

553
00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:35,059
the Sydney social skeptics meetup group

554
00:21:41,020 --> 00:21:38,230
and that'll get them there there is a

555
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:41,030
drinking skeptically in Sydney facebook

556
00:21:45,310 --> 00:21:43,280
group that's not all that easy to find

557
00:21:47,140 --> 00:21:45,320
at the moment i'll make it better or

558
00:21:49,390 --> 00:21:47,150
they can contact me on twitter at drunk

559
00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:49,400
and mad men at drunken madman of course

560
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:52,940
I'm quite delighted on how popular these

561
00:21:56,530 --> 00:21:55,250
social skeptical drinking sessions are

562
00:21:59,320 --> 00:21:56,540
becoming all around the world I think

563
00:22:00,880 --> 00:21:59,330
but everywhere yeah yeah all over

564
00:22:02,860 --> 00:22:00,890
Britain all over the states all over

565
00:22:04,570 --> 00:22:02,870
Australia it's that's body great I like

566
00:22:06,850 --> 00:22:04,580
it so the message for our listeners if

567
00:22:08,590 --> 00:22:06,860
they're considering starting up

568
00:22:10,330 --> 00:22:08,600
something similar where they live is by

569
00:22:12,580 --> 00:22:10,340
all means go for it dad just get on with

570
00:22:15,010 --> 00:22:12,590
it but it put a little note up on meetup

571
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:15,020
com or Facebook or wherever people will

572
00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:17,090
figure it out broadcast around Twitter

573
00:22:21,159 --> 00:22:19,190
go that the hashes skeptic hashtag and

574
00:22:23,289 --> 00:22:21,169
we'll get around and you'll find people

575
00:22:25,090 --> 00:22:23,299
to drink with it's great you will have

576
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:25,100
let us know here at the skeptic zone and

577
00:22:28,419 --> 00:22:26,570
we'll give you a shout out to so enjoy

578
00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:28,429
the rest of your red thank you very much

579
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:32,150
riches and i'm here at this great new

580
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:34,730
skeptics in the pub are in new town new

581
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:38,510
and new town with jane hi Jane how are

582
00:22:44,140 --> 00:22:42,320
you I'm fine as you as you almost tried

583
00:22:45,490 --> 00:22:44,150
to drink your beer there what brings you

584
00:22:47,919 --> 00:22:45,500
to zoom and drink good people keep

585
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:47,929
speaking to me oh it's terrible what

586
00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:50,510
brings you to this new new town new

587
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:53,809
skeptics and above I just wanted some to

588
00:23:00,029 --> 00:22:55,130
meet some people that didn't ask me to

589
00:23:04,169 --> 00:23:02,009
it broke me people have been asking you

590
00:23:07,109 --> 00:23:04,179
tortuous change yeah oh dear dear dear

591
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:07,119
do it watch it you did yeah that's one

592
00:23:11,070 --> 00:23:08,799
up on me I must admit I've never watched

593
00:23:14,249 --> 00:23:11,080
it it's really not that hard to pull

594
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:14,259
apart but um obviously you guys through

595
00:23:19,979 --> 00:23:16,960
and look at it afterwards and do some

596
00:23:22,349 --> 00:23:19,989
fact-checking isn't get around xillia so

597
00:23:24,269 --> 00:23:22,359
that's that's you're looking for okay

598
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:24,279
that was the straw that doesn't write me

599
00:23:31,289 --> 00:23:28,570
I don't want to be rude to people so so

600
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:31,299
this is this is inherently this is

601
00:23:34,489 --> 00:23:32,799
therapy n are you saying this is

602
00:23:36,299 --> 00:23:34,499
interesting because we've got the

603
00:23:38,219 --> 00:23:36,309
skeptics in the pub around downtown

604
00:23:41,489 --> 00:23:38,229
which is been going for six or seven

605
00:23:44,009 --> 00:23:41,499
years and it's really you know this Rose

606
00:23:45,749 --> 00:23:44,019
me your such hope that just people have

607
00:23:47,489 --> 00:23:45,759
decided oh let's have another one it's

608
00:23:49,469 --> 00:23:47,499
so much fun let's have another one will

609
00:23:51,389 --> 00:23:49,479
put in a different location here in New

610
00:23:54,810 --> 00:23:51,399
Towns which is out from the center of

611
00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:54,820
the city and already there's a six seven

612
00:23:58,950 --> 00:23:57,070
eight nine ten people here and I've

613
00:24:02,430 --> 00:23:58,960
already had a nice plate of nachos with

614
00:24:04,830 --> 00:24:02,440
dr. a chew I think this has got a really

615
00:24:07,379 --> 00:24:04,840
positive future game it's very relaxed

616
00:24:09,089 --> 00:24:07,389
feeling it is and everyone's chatting

617
00:24:12,239 --> 00:24:09,099
about well mostly nerdy stuff let's be

618
00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:12,249
honest but we yeah that's a pretty big

619
00:24:16,889 --> 00:24:14,769
range now you joined us I think you

620
00:24:19,499 --> 00:24:16,899
joined us down the opera house last

621
00:24:22,049 --> 00:24:19,509
weekend for the only she'd and I was at

622
00:24:23,399 --> 00:24:22,059
the crown my first skeptics meeting was

623
00:24:25,710 --> 00:24:23,409
at the crown hotel it's one of those

624
00:24:27,690 --> 00:24:25,720
things I've been meaning to do for a

625
00:24:29,609 --> 00:24:27,700
long time and never really got around to

626
00:24:31,499 --> 00:24:29,619
so and how did you find out about the

627
00:24:34,590 --> 00:24:31,509
skeptical movement generally online

628
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:34,600
mostly things like Reddit

629
00:24:42,510 --> 00:24:37,570
those kind of thoughts maybe first and

630
00:24:44,730 --> 00:24:42,520
then Facebook made up there 10 meetings

631
00:24:47,430 --> 00:24:44,740
with yes yes all those kind of things

632
00:24:49,919 --> 00:24:47,440
just and hanging around the fringes hang

633
00:24:53,159 --> 00:24:49,929
another moon do you know you diving into

634
00:24:55,740 --> 00:24:53,169
the deep end yes yes it's really good I

635
00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:55,750
think um I was a little concerned

636
00:25:01,110 --> 00:24:58,570
because it's a well everyone I speak to

637
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:01,120
eight years or more skepticism they say

638
00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:03,610
you know where all the female life yes

639
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:07,240
we're all the female skeptics and and

640
00:25:13,049 --> 00:25:10,330
you're here what exactly I'm right I'm

641
00:25:16,140 --> 00:25:13,059
right here and you go to skeptics in the

642
00:25:19,529 --> 00:25:16,150
cabin in yeah the cram hotel and it does

643
00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:19,539
no there's no noticeable male dominance

644
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:22,360
and in the knife as a big mixer appear

645
00:25:26,460 --> 00:25:24,880
to be an exit eight ye jism cell I was

646
00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:26,470
talking to another girl at the overdose

647
00:25:30,539 --> 00:25:28,809
such as saying you can't tell where

648
00:25:33,659 --> 00:25:30,549
these people come from what they do for

649
00:25:35,610 --> 00:25:33,669
work it's such a big range so well I'm

650
00:25:40,890 --> 00:25:35,620
delighted that you're here and I think

651
00:25:42,149 --> 00:25:40,900
this second satellite sort of variation

652
00:25:43,529 --> 00:25:42,159
of skeptics in the pub I think it's got

653
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:43,539
a great future because this is a really

654
00:25:48,419 --> 00:25:45,130
nice but this is really cozy up here

655
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:48,429
it's fantastic it's coax a lot of a lot

656
00:25:51,930 --> 00:25:50,110
of skeptics are non-religious as well so

657
00:25:55,169 --> 00:25:51,940
you don't get the sunday social aspect

658
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:55,179
yeah well what can we do it at the pub

659
00:25:58,770 --> 00:25:57,370
enjoy you enjoy your beer I'll let you

660
00:26:01,980 --> 00:25:58,780
get back to your beer thank you very

661
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:01,990
much now of course the conversation that

662
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:05,110
skeptics in the pub is wide-ranging ash

663
00:26:10,830 --> 00:26:07,270
you're just telling us about a psychic

664
00:26:12,330 --> 00:26:10,840
experience you had yes I've got I've got

665
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:12,340
a simple rule of thumb being a

666
00:26:17,460 --> 00:26:15,940
motorcyclist whenever there is the point

667
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:17,470
that your brain brings up the word

668
00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:20,210
wanker you get out of the way

669
00:26:27,310 --> 00:26:23,900
I was sitting on my bike on the road

670
00:26:30,850 --> 00:26:27,320
waiting for the middle harbour bridge to

671
00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:30,860
to open backed up in traffic near the

672
00:26:36,430 --> 00:26:33,320
crest of the hill in front of behind a

673
00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:36,440
high end I and I just thought to myself

674
00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:40,070
are wouldn't it be terrible if someone

675
00:26:45,730 --> 00:26:43,040
came over the top of the hill that word

676
00:26:48,970 --> 00:26:45,740
wanker came into my mind so I moved out

677
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:48,980
of the way and just after idea about 45

678
00:26:52,780 --> 00:26:51,200
seconds later at kingswood came flying

679
00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:52,790
over the hill smashed into the back of

680
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:55,220
the Horned I and pushed it into four

681
00:27:01,240 --> 00:26:57,770
other cards making a five-car pileup um

682
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:01,250
so I was very happy that my psychic

683
00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:06,050
abilities saved me from that perilous

684
00:27:10,690 --> 00:27:08,900
accident let me go say goodbye it just

685
00:27:13,270 --> 00:27:10,700
get out of the way just give it a good

686
00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:13,280
advice Jane also mentioned that ash must

687
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:14,840
be a Sagittarius because they're very

688
00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:21,170
intuitive no see ya she was convincing

689
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:22,550
me earlier that she was a skeptic or

690
00:27:29,890 --> 00:27:27,290
your father had been longer yeah that's

691
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:29,900
it now of course dr. H II it's good to

692
00:27:34,210 --> 00:27:32,600
see you here at the new skeptics and the

693
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:34,220
puppets going quite well it is going

694
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:35,690
well written this is not my first time

695
00:27:40,060 --> 00:27:38,090
here i have to say i have been here

696
00:27:42,010 --> 00:27:40,070
before once it's a different feeling to

697
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:42,020
the one we have downtown it's different

698
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:44,330
arbiter well there's no formality is

699
00:27:50,650 --> 00:27:46,610
there no there's no speaking here this

700
00:27:53,550 --> 00:27:50,660
funky music in the background here jump

701
00:27:57,790 --> 00:27:53,560
around um no but it's a nice bar at some

702
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:57,800
relaxed and friendly people good food so

703
00:28:02,170 --> 00:28:00,320
yeah good food I enjoyed my nachos

704
00:28:02,930 --> 00:28:02,180
before I had to sell it and it was for a

705
00:28:04,970 --> 00:28:02,940
yummy

706
00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:04,980
yeah so I think the message we keep

707
00:28:07,790 --> 00:28:06,480
telling our listeners no matter where

708
00:28:09,530 --> 00:28:07,800
you are in the world if you want to

709
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:09,540
start a skeptics in the pub well what's

710
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:11,130
stopping you it yeah well this one was

711
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:13,200
just started by a drunken man man just a

712
00:28:17,810 --> 00:28:16,170
few months ago and there's probably 10

713
00:28:19,850 --> 00:28:17,820
or 12 people you now which is pretty

714
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:19,860
cool that it's only gonna get better

715
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:22,050
everything I think so and if you do

716
00:28:26,270 --> 00:28:23,910
start a new skeptics in the pub anywhere

717
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:26,280
in the world why not invite dr. rich in

718
00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:30,960
myself particularly if it's at a

719
00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:35,940
restaurant that it sells crab legs thank

720
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:47,820
you dr. H hi this is brian dunning from

721
00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:50,640
sceptile calm the best way to share the

722
00:28:53,780 --> 00:28:52,110
benefits of critical thinking and

723
00:28:56,540 --> 00:28:53,790
science with someone who doesn't listen

724
00:28:58,910 --> 00:28:56,550
to podcasts is to give them a book i

725
00:29:00,890 --> 00:28:58,920
invite you to check out my newest book

726
00:29:04,550 --> 00:29:00,900
based on selected episodes of the

727
00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:04,560
sceptile cast skep tied three pirates

728
00:29:10,910 --> 00:29:08,400
pyramids and papyrus 50 chapters contain

729
00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:10,920
something for everyone questions you've

730
00:29:15,850 --> 00:29:13,230
always wondered about and subject to

731
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:15,860
intrigue and challenge your friends

732
00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:19,290
pirates pyramids and papyrus by Brian

733
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:21,150
Dunning with a foreword by Richard

734
00:29:25,310 --> 00:29:23,850
Saunders of the Australian skeptics it's

735
00:29:28,250 --> 00:29:25,320
available now from major online

736
00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:28,260
booksellers as a paperback and as an

737
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:31,470
e-book or get a personalized copy from

738
00:29:39,020 --> 00:29:35,010
sceptile com I'm Brian Dunning from

739
00:29:41,150 --> 00:29:39,030
sceptile calm if you would like to bid

740
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:41,160
on a copy of Brian Dunning's latest book

741
00:29:46,220 --> 00:29:43,710
signed by the author and also Richard

742
00:29:54,140 --> 00:29:46,230
Saunders click the link at skeptics own

743
00:30:07,980 --> 00:29:57,539
join us now for drinking skeptically in

744
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:07,990
the think tank are you gazing adjacent

745
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:10,090
he's just across the table from you

746
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:12,880
welcome to the think tank Diane thank

747
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:15,370
you Richard and welcome Iran's again

748
00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:20,770
thank you Richard welcome shayan been

749
00:30:29,159 --> 00:30:24,790
amuro I still numbing your noms eyes I'm

750
00:30:33,140 --> 00:30:29,169
done now hi Richard hi Joe welcome

751
00:30:38,010 --> 00:30:33,150
welcome Jason good evening good evening

752
00:30:40,409 --> 00:30:38,020
Jason not the homeless Jason home he has

753
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:40,419
an end of course welcome dr. Reggie

754
00:30:45,659 --> 00:30:43,210
Dunlop hi Richard what an interesting

755
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:45,669
time it's been lately and it's really

756
00:30:48,450 --> 00:30:47,200
great to see everybody back here at our

757
00:30:50,490 --> 00:30:48,460
favorite Club down the end of the street

758
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:50,500
for the think tank let's kick off

759
00:30:56,390 --> 00:30:53,710
straight away by some news with the our

760
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:56,400
anti-vaxxers they've been lampooned

761
00:31:04,409 --> 00:31:01,200
lambasted what was it lamb chops and

762
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:04,419
whoever else lamington lamington nice

763
00:31:09,659 --> 00:31:06,880
okay now I'll just play a clip that was

764
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:09,669
on a television show he called the 7pm

765
00:31:15,030 --> 00:31:12,640
project just the other night but some

766
00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:15,040
still argue that vaccination is not the

767
00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:17,110
only answer to serious infections and

768
00:31:21,390 --> 00:31:18,790
for parents who want an alternative

769
00:31:24,390 --> 00:31:21,400
there are doctors willing to support

770
00:31:27,180 --> 00:31:24,400
their choice I will never advise against

771
00:31:29,580 --> 00:31:27,190
vaccination however under particular

772
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:29,590
circumstances I will support that that

773
00:31:33,130 --> 00:31:31,120
would mean breastfeeding for the first

774
00:31:35,410 --> 00:31:33,140
12 months of life it will be not

775
00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:35,420
a long day care center for more than 20

776
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:37,880
hours a week excellent diet the parents

777
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:39,440
have to be very proactive if they're

778
00:31:43,390 --> 00:31:41,510
going to choose not to vaccinate I'm a

779
00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:43,400
bit worried about what that woman said

780
00:31:48,460 --> 00:31:46,190
that dr. seducing you have a choice and

781
00:31:50,980 --> 00:31:48,470
you can be proactive if you don't leave

782
00:31:55,270 --> 00:31:50,990
your child in child care for 20 hours a

783
00:31:56,890 --> 00:31:55,280
week versus a little teen their eyes

784
00:31:58,810 --> 00:31:56,900
first day you got a cold let me be frank

785
00:31:59,770 --> 00:31:58,820
I don't agree with that i think you mean

786
00:32:01,840 --> 00:31:59,780
I don't in the whole point of

787
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:01,850
immunization and and I'm wiping out

788
00:32:04,510 --> 00:32:03,170
diseases like whooping cough and not

789
00:32:06,610 --> 00:32:04,520
having these small children the one in

790
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:06,620
200 dying from this is about all of us

791
00:32:09,340 --> 00:32:07,490
actually taking some responsibility

792
00:32:11,140 --> 00:32:09,350
getting that herd immunity because if we

793
00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:11,150
all don't jump on board whooping cough

794
00:32:14,380 --> 00:32:12,500
we'll just stick around we got rid of

795
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:14,390
smallpox there's nothing to say we can

796
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:16,910
if every if we had a program mass

797
00:32:20,730 --> 00:32:18,770
immunization you're riffing week we

798
00:32:22,780 --> 00:32:20,740
smoke weed you get to that point

799
00:32:24,670 --> 00:32:22,790
theoretically we could find out more

800
00:32:28,150 --> 00:32:24,680
about whooping cough and immunization

801
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:28,160
just head to 7pm project com au ok so

802
00:32:33,220 --> 00:32:31,700
there you go great advice dr. AG yeah

803
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:33,230
look this comes on the back Richard of

804
00:32:38,260 --> 00:32:36,290
the tragic death in fact only today of

805
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:38,270
another baby in Australia from whooping

806
00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:41,210
cough this time it was a newborn two

807
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:46,520
weeks old a boy in Victoria it's just I

808
00:32:51,270 --> 00:32:48,530
mean this the epidemic that we have in

809
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:51,280
this country is incredibly serious now

810
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:54,080
as you probably as early stirs might be

811
00:32:59,860 --> 00:32:57,200
aware Meryl dory who has strangely full

812
00:33:01,720 --> 00:32:59,870
enough off the the face of the earth

813
00:33:03,970 --> 00:33:01,730
when it comes to the media the radar

814
00:33:05,530 --> 00:33:03,980
right now isn't that interesting I

815
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:05,540
wonder if it's got anything to do with

816
00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:07,610
the work that we've been doing behind

817
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:09,110
the scenes to convince the media that

818
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:11,120
she's um probably not a very good

819
00:33:15,790 --> 00:33:13,370
resource or source for information she's

820
00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:15,800
preparing advanced she's preparing a

821
00:33:23,740 --> 00:33:21,220
defense yeah but I'm we just after this

822
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:23,750
this segment aired that you refer to we

823
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:25,010
did find out that we've lost another

824
00:33:29,380 --> 00:33:27,370
baby now she keeps on carrying on about

825
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:29,390
ninety-five percent ninety-five percent

826
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:30,890
everyone you know there's ninety-five

827
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:32,000
percent coverage of whooping cough

828
00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:35,090
vaccination in this country that that is

829
00:33:39,130 --> 00:33:37,670
only for a very small segment of people

830
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:39,140
and that's I think it's from kids

831
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:41,810
between 12 to 15 mar

832
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:44,810
have a ninety-five percent coverage it

833
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:46,370
was revealed in the segment last night

834
00:33:49,930 --> 00:33:48,080
and I haven't checked these stats but

835
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:49,940
it's it seems like it's in the ballpark

836
00:33:54,790 --> 00:33:52,010
there's something like twenty percent of

837
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:54,800
adults I covered currently vaccinated

838
00:33:58,750 --> 00:33:56,690
for whooping cough yeah and that's

839
00:34:01,390 --> 00:33:58,760
because we all we got it years ago but

840
00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:01,400
our immunities worn off in the meantime

841
00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:04,910
well yeah the ptosis immunity drops if i

842
00:34:08,140 --> 00:34:06,560
remember right it's about five percent a

843
00:34:09,670 --> 00:34:08,150
year you get nearly one hundred percent

844
00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:09,680
coverage in your first year but by the

845
00:34:14,290 --> 00:34:11,270
end of 10 years you down to about fifty

846
00:34:15,790 --> 00:34:14,300
percent so yeah it's a general comment

847
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:15,800
of a lot of heat unless they don't know

848
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:18,290
this I don't even know why has a flu no

849
00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:21,440
I mean this is this is the we could say

850
00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:22,580
so much about this but the point that

851
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,470
you raised that we should stick to is

852
00:34:28,690 --> 00:34:26,480
that they copped it again now the woman

853
00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:28,700
that you heard in that segment dr. Robin

854
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:33,110
cause Cosford she came across as very

855
00:34:38,260 --> 00:34:35,810
fairy unicorn farts or rainbows and

856
00:34:41,350 --> 00:34:38,270
happy days you know saying that just

857
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:41,360
just have a good diet and don't stay in

858
00:34:44,350 --> 00:34:42,560
child care for more than 20 hours

859
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:44,360
because as people pointed out here

860
00:34:49,420 --> 00:34:47,690
earlier bacteria and viruses wait till

861
00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:49,430
20 hours before they jump on your kids

862
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:52,790
right it's okay can you stop watches yes

863
00:34:57,220 --> 00:34:55,370
they have and and I mentioned in good

864
00:34:58,750 --> 00:34:57,230
diet well I think Iran commented that

865
00:35:00,460 --> 00:34:58,760
you know if you put a Brussels sprout in

866
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:00,470
front of a virus or bacteria it says oh

867
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:02,450
no no no it won't go need unlike me

868
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:04,070
until it until they grow up in the

869
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:05,510
realized ladies hell yeah that's right

870
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:07,250
until they grow up and then like some

871
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:09,410
people at this table they like that's an

872
00:35:16,510 --> 00:35:12,170
adult fire it will infect the trial

873
00:35:18,850 --> 00:35:16,520
that's strike so uh she said some some

874
00:35:20,530 --> 00:35:18,860
stuff that was completely preposterous I

875
00:35:22,060 --> 00:35:20,540
was most impressed I was disappointed

876
00:35:23,350 --> 00:35:22,070
that she was part of this report but I

877
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:23,360
was most impressed that it wasn't

878
00:35:28,450 --> 00:35:26,210
Merrill Dori yes but we did some

879
00:35:30,940 --> 00:35:28,460
research today and because you said to

880
00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:30,950
me and Peter ratbag Bowditch also

881
00:35:36,180 --> 00:35:32,830
thought that he'd heard of her before

882
00:35:38,890 --> 00:35:36,190
now it turns out that she was in a 2002

883
00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:38,900
conference which was run by the ABN

884
00:35:42,490 --> 00:35:40,430
absolutely I wish she SAT alongside

885
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:42,500
Merrill dory on a panel yeah and took

886
00:35:48,210 --> 00:35:45,410
questions after her seminar most of her

887
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:48,220
talk was about vaccines causing autism

888
00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:51,410
now this yeah well she strongly alluded

889
00:35:54,930 --> 00:35:51,880
to

890
00:35:57,690 --> 00:35:54,940
in her talk in 2002 and she kept harping

891
00:35:58,980 --> 00:35:57,700
on about leaky gut you know she was

892
00:36:01,470 --> 00:35:58,990
following the line of Wakefield which

893
00:36:03,509 --> 00:36:01,480
was the leaky gut leads to autism and

894
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:03,519
that mercury is and vaccines and it's

895
00:36:06,930 --> 00:36:04,960
right she's mean and it's a neurotoxin

896
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:06,940
and bloody because he's one of the rogue

897
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:09,930
aged wanted she is yeah she is but as

898
00:36:16,380 --> 00:36:13,450
you heard in that clip as soon as they

899
00:36:18,150 --> 00:36:16,390
switch back to the panel after she she

900
00:36:20,819 --> 00:36:18,160
was spouted her unicorns and rainbows

901
00:36:23,279 --> 00:36:20,829
farts or whatever they just took it

902
00:36:25,589 --> 00:36:23,289
appears yeah and I was very impressed by

903
00:36:29,579 --> 00:36:25,599
that actually that that when when the

904
00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:29,589
segment ended and ended it and I had I'd

905
00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:31,240
been I was really pleased with how it

906
00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:33,430
had gone and then when it ended with her

907
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,630
participation I was really disappointed

908
00:36:40,049 --> 00:36:36,640
and then when they cut back to the panel

909
00:36:45,410 --> 00:36:40,059
and dr. Andrew Rochford and Andrew Bolt

910
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:45,420
I don't you that I Lagos unexpectedly

911
00:36:50,249 --> 00:36:48,730
came out and really just hauled her over

912
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:50,259
the coals for what she said and question

913
00:36:54,329 --> 00:36:51,970
her it was just a bit actually than

914
00:36:56,039 --> 00:36:54,339
Moktar which is better yeah well did

915
00:36:58,980 --> 00:36:56,049
well it was so easy to do i'm in this

916
00:37:01,710 --> 00:36:58,990
ridiculous advice about 20 hours yeah it

917
00:37:04,109 --> 00:37:01,720
was just a little just incredible I mean

918
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:04,119
she she is a as it turns out we don't

919
00:37:08,190 --> 00:37:05,890
know she's still an avian sympathizer

920
00:37:10,799 --> 00:37:08,200
but she has been the past been an avian

921
00:37:12,749 --> 00:37:10,809
sympathizer I wouldn't surprise me if

922
00:37:15,059 --> 00:37:12,759
not would it surprise me either she kept

923
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:15,069
you sorry I just a interrupting she

924
00:37:22,170 --> 00:37:19,210
mentioned then and in research I did

925
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:22,180
today then being 2002 something called

926
00:37:30,089 --> 00:37:27,250
this immunity shift yeah World Health

927
00:37:33,089 --> 00:37:30,099
Organization vaccines cause an immunity

928
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:33,099
shift fortunately goes you need to shift

929
00:37:38,730 --> 00:37:36,970
into the person oh look we go yeah well

930
00:37:40,859 --> 00:37:38,740
research this more this is one of these

931
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:40,869
things that you hear rolled out from all

932
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:42,400
the anti-vaxxers I heard exactly the

933
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:48,250
same thing from Nimrod we know I love

934
00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:50,910
his name and you

935
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:53,730
USA the thing is when you mention his

936
00:37:58,220 --> 00:37:56,130
name you have to you know put a little

937
00:38:02,150 --> 00:37:58,230
asterisk and say that's really he's

938
00:38:05,569 --> 00:38:02,160
naked it's one of these anti Baxter

939
00:38:08,569 --> 00:38:05,579
rhetoric you know and actually I Tom

940
00:38:10,670 --> 00:38:08,579
said well who's a member of si bien did

941
00:38:12,260 --> 00:38:10,680
a nice little example of where they get

942
00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:12,270
their references from the other day

943
00:38:16,069 --> 00:38:14,190
where he did five steps to finding

944
00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:16,079
references for the antimatter's on its

945
00:38:20,779 --> 00:38:18,660
alien where he said you know type this

946
00:38:23,450 --> 00:38:20,789
into google you'll end up at wale to

947
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:23,460
which is a conspiracy antivirus you know

948
00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:26,880
crazy website go to yo another thing

949
00:38:31,910 --> 00:38:29,940
wale dot T oh yeah click on the

950
00:38:34,279 --> 00:38:31,920
vaccination to have then click on the

951
00:38:36,829 --> 00:38:34,289
immunology tab or something and then

952
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:36,839
you'll find these five references but

953
00:38:45,410 --> 00:38:42,510
Meryl copy pasted into her age too this

954
00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:45,420
is this is how these memes of like the

955
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:47,160
immune system shift gets passed around

956
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:49,890
by these numpties because they just they

957
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:51,390
hear it and they perish it from somebody

958
00:38:55,789 --> 00:38:53,760
else I'm that's my opinion I haven't

959
00:38:57,140 --> 00:38:55,799
determined that but but the problem is

960
00:39:00,260 --> 00:38:57,150
there's a lot of people who are not

961
00:39:03,140 --> 00:39:00,270
dogmatic they just they really are

962
00:39:04,789 --> 00:39:03,150
worried you know they're just not just

963
00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:04,799
ignorant basically I'm not saying even

964
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:06,569
it in a bad way this you know new

965
00:39:10,490 --> 00:39:08,640
parents oh and they look for information

966
00:39:13,370 --> 00:39:10,500
and they find these things because

967
00:39:15,589 --> 00:39:13,380
because they perpetuate the same myths

968
00:39:16,730 --> 00:39:15,599
over and over again it's very easy to

969
00:39:18,019 --> 00:39:16,740
find those things you look for those

970
00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:18,029
things you will find them more easily

971
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:20,220
than you find the more complex truths

972
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:26,160
that science offers no that's why their

973
00:39:30,140 --> 00:39:27,930
parents go there then because they find

974
00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:30,150
that information I think that's what I

975
00:39:33,859 --> 00:39:32,609
think the stop avn does fantastic work

976
00:39:36,079 --> 00:39:33,869
because they're try to cut that

977
00:39:37,970 --> 00:39:36,089
information down from those streams

978
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:37,980
really and it's always this false

979
00:39:43,549 --> 00:39:40,079
balance isn't dr. hu that still goes on

980
00:39:45,859 --> 00:39:43,559
yeah well this is I mean I I look at it

981
00:39:47,980 --> 00:39:45,869
now as if ninety-nine point nine nine

982
00:39:51,019 --> 00:39:47,990
percent of the science supports

983
00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:51,029
vaccination as a tool to prevent

984
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:52,920
communicable disease and suffering and

985
00:39:59,000 --> 00:39:56,010
mobility and mortality if the 0.01

986
00:40:00,260 --> 00:39:59,010
percent are the crazy nut jobs how does

987
00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:00,270
it make sense to do a story on

988
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:03,119
vaccination and give one group half the

989
00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:03,770
story and the

990
00:40:07,060 --> 00:40:05,120
great hoffa story because that's the way

991
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:07,070
journalists thing yeah but but when you

992
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:08,450
think about that there's ninety percent

993
00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:10,310
ninety-nine point nine nine percent and

994
00:40:14,260 --> 00:40:12,470
0.01 percent yeah you wouldn't give them

995
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:14,270
fifty percent of the story you and me

996
00:40:18,430 --> 00:40:16,730
know but the journalists remember in the

997
00:40:20,860 --> 00:40:18,440
back of their mind or especially in the

998
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:20,870
executive producer is this show has to

999
00:40:26,350 --> 00:40:23,930
rate we need a conflict we need but and

1000
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:26,360
that they're not trained to know that

1001
00:40:31,330 --> 00:40:28,880
this these people are complete cranks

1002
00:40:33,370 --> 00:40:31,340
roof they are they don't care where else

1003
00:40:36,730 --> 00:40:33,380
here that it's 50 / stand or that it's

1004
00:40:38,050 --> 00:40:36,740
you know 0.01 percent I just think I yo

1005
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:38,060
got that information that information

1006
00:40:42,610 --> 00:40:40,130
and that's it and don't forget that our

1007
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:42,620
side are often painted by these peoples

1008
00:40:47,170 --> 00:40:45,110
being cranks to I do take issue with the

1009
00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:47,180
fact that they're not trained to know

1010
00:40:51,490 --> 00:40:49,160
that this one's a crank and this one is

1011
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:51,500
it alright I mean and the reason I say

1012
00:40:58,900 --> 00:40:55,250
that is because the fact is the vast

1013
00:41:04,320 --> 00:40:58,910
majority of people out there actually do

1014
00:41:07,210 --> 00:41:04,330
have a pretty good amount of trust in

1015
00:41:08,620 --> 00:41:07,220
doctors and in health care and the vast

1016
00:41:11,530 --> 00:41:08,630
majority of people out there are

1017
00:41:13,870 --> 00:41:11,540
vaccinated and and the vast majority of

1018
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:13,880
people are able to actually at some

1019
00:41:18,910 --> 00:41:16,370
level discriminate between things now I

1020
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:18,920
know that a lot of times we sort of you

1021
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:21,050
know not everyone may be as educated as

1022
00:41:24,670 --> 00:41:22,610
other people about some scientific

1023
00:41:26,410 --> 00:41:24,680
issues but I do think that most people

1024
00:41:28,330 --> 00:41:26,420
can actually be discriminating not in

1025
00:41:32,410 --> 00:41:28,340
every area I think there are some areas

1026
00:41:35,770 --> 00:41:32,420
where even the most I you know die hard

1027
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:35,780
you know skeptical prize themselves on

1028
00:41:38,830 --> 00:41:37,490
being discriminating we all can fall

1029
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:38,840
down when it comes to certain things and

1030
00:41:41,830 --> 00:41:40,400
I just I think that it's not just that

1031
00:41:43,810 --> 00:41:41,840
the journalists aren't able to

1032
00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:43,820
discriminate between who should be asked

1033
00:41:49,150 --> 00:41:45,920
for information I think that it's more

1034
00:41:51,220 --> 00:41:49,160
to do with the philosophy or the the way

1035
00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:51,230
journalism the world journalism actually

1036
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:53,390
works in terms of having to provide a

1037
00:41:57,490 --> 00:41:55,610
balance regardless of whether it's a

1038
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:57,500
reliable piece of information I don't

1039
00:42:00,850 --> 00:41:58,640
think it's that they're necessarily

1040
00:42:02,590 --> 00:42:00,860
unable to discriminate between what's

1041
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:02,600
good and what's bad information I think

1042
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:04,580
they just don't care I think really

1043
00:42:09,250 --> 00:42:06,770
they're just that they want to put out a

1044
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:09,260
good story I think most most journalists

1045
00:42:16,030 --> 00:42:12,890
and I stand behind that statement most

1046
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:16,040
journalists really care about the story

1047
00:42:19,690 --> 00:42:17,540
there's very few journalists

1048
00:42:21,820 --> 00:42:19,700
getting the story out there I think

1049
00:42:23,890 --> 00:42:21,830
there's very few journalists who would

1050
00:42:28,540 --> 00:42:23,900
let the truth stand in the way of a good

1051
00:42:30,310 --> 00:42:28,550
story lecturer at the University and see

1052
00:42:33,340 --> 00:42:30,320
what how did they present it when they

1053
00:42:35,950 --> 00:42:33,350
teach driverless you know curious to see

1054
00:42:40,420 --> 00:42:35,960
what they would do is discussion at

1055
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:40,430
Nexus in 2009 and I was told by looks

1056
00:42:46,780 --> 00:42:44,510
remember Howard a car memory is surname

1057
00:42:48,370 --> 00:42:46,790
now Howard Schneider I think it is and

1058
00:42:50,980 --> 00:42:48,380
he's a highly decorated journal and a

1059
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:50,990
lecturer in in the States and we got

1060
00:42:54,670 --> 00:42:52,730
into a huge argument about false balance

1061
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:54,680
because and it continued into the green

1062
00:42:58,420 --> 00:42:56,450
room afterwards for 45 minutes because

1063
00:42:59,650 --> 00:42:58,430
he was saying no that's the way we're

1064
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,660
trained that's the way we'll do it piss

1065
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:02,000
off all you have to think you know how

1066
00:43:10,090 --> 00:43:03,650
interesting is a headline that says

1067
00:43:12,430 --> 00:43:10,100
shock vaccines still work the thing is

1068
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:12,440
you know what there are no stories there

1069
00:43:16,860 --> 00:43:14,810
are no stories in the press about the

1070
00:43:19,150 --> 00:43:16,870
earth still rotating about its axis

1071
00:43:20,740 --> 00:43:19,160
perhaps the best thing to do is simply

1072
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:20,750
not tell stories about things that just

1073
00:43:25,690 --> 00:43:23,090
we know the facts it's not interesting

1074
00:43:28,450 --> 00:43:25,700
don't talk about it the fact that they

1075
00:43:30,220 --> 00:43:28,460
feel a need to even talk about it

1076
00:43:32,110 --> 00:43:30,230
suggests that they are looking for a

1077
00:43:35,770 --> 00:43:32,120
story there I mean really just this the

1078
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:35,780
science is settled why is it a story it

1079
00:43:39,850 --> 00:43:37,850
shouldn't be the what should be a story

1080
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:39,860
what should be a story is a child in

1081
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:41,510
Victoria who died because there are

1082
00:43:45,310 --> 00:43:43,370
people who perpetuate his midst of these

1083
00:43:48,250 --> 00:43:45,320
lies and as we heard last week on the

1084
00:43:50,740 --> 00:43:48,260
skeptic zone Tracy spice have brought up

1085
00:43:52,630 --> 00:43:50,750
an interesting point you know she's

1086
00:43:55,950 --> 00:43:52,640
slapping down merrill dory and she said

1087
00:43:58,450 --> 00:43:55,960
something on radio which a lot of people

1088
00:44:01,270 --> 00:43:58,460
maybe don't know and I use the word

1089
00:44:05,350 --> 00:44:01,280
maybe is that these people merrill dory

1090
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:05,360
included consider the the horrible

1091
00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:07,970
occurrence of shaken baby syndrome is

1092
00:44:13,540 --> 00:44:09,950
where a baby is shook and social cook

1093
00:44:14,740 --> 00:44:13,550
and shaked shaken sorry I'm getting

1094
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:14,750
emotional about this shaking so hard

1095
00:44:19,210 --> 00:44:16,610
that it actually causes damage to the

1096
00:44:21,370 --> 00:44:19,220
baby they call this shaken baby syndrome

1097
00:44:23,690 --> 00:44:21,380
because in their opinion it's actually

1098
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:23,700
vaccines that do the damage

1099
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:25,890
they don't wonder how exactly a vaccine

1100
00:44:30,589 --> 00:44:28,079
is meant to break a baby's ribs I want

1101
00:44:32,329 --> 00:44:30,599
to explain dat Jason vide yes he did but

1102
00:44:34,609 --> 00:44:32,339
that's Irwin I stopped listening to her

1103
00:44:36,170 --> 00:44:34,619
I know but Owen said that when the baby

1104
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:36,180
is forced through the birth canal that

1105
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:38,810
fractures the loops how did you know it

1106
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:42,000
is over the chiropractor no intervention

1107
00:44:49,250 --> 00:44:44,310
that's my job who's Jason please talk

1108
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:49,260
about in a minute he runs vine oh yes

1109
00:44:55,569 --> 00:44:51,210
yes what is it vaccination vaccine

1110
00:44:59,660 --> 00:44:55,579
information network mine VI NE now yes

1111
00:45:02,599 --> 00:44:59,670
you are the compass is only 529 now I

1112
00:45:04,310 --> 00:45:02,609
know exactly why don't you tell us a

1113
00:45:06,410 --> 00:45:04,320
little bit more about that there Jason

1114
00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:06,420
and especially about the fake reports I

1115
00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:08,520
don't know what I'm a little while ago

1116
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:10,710
we do keep an eye on the divine facebook

1117
00:45:15,290 --> 00:45:12,960
page and a little while ago a graph

1118
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:15,300
popped up which was kind of interesting

1119
00:45:20,569 --> 00:45:17,609
I'm definitely on a podcast to describe

1120
00:45:22,730 --> 00:45:20,579
it but it was basically a graph of the

1121
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:22,740
decline in deaths per hundred thousand

1122
00:45:30,349 --> 00:45:25,410
head of population since the himbo

1123
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:30,359
Phyllis hip vaccine was introduced this

1124
00:45:33,380 --> 00:45:31,770
is a graph that you can probably find

1125
00:45:35,870 --> 00:45:33,390
around the internet here and there but

1126
00:45:39,890 --> 00:45:35,880
this one interestingly had a converse

1127
00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:39,900
line on it that suggested that total

1128
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:42,510
meningitis reporting went up after the

1129
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:44,400
introduction of the vaccine implying a

1130
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:45,690
course that the vaccines been causing

1131
00:45:55,819 --> 00:45:48,720
men and gas interestingly though it's

1132
00:45:57,980 --> 00:45:55,829
drawn on as if in crayon and the the key

1133
00:45:59,450 --> 00:45:57,990
doesn't match the background the keys

1134
00:46:01,099 --> 00:45:59,460
from a non-existent source and the

1135
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:01,109
copyright on the graph is from fichte

1136
00:46:05,710 --> 00:46:03,450
score I've tricked us is a legal term

1137
00:46:09,500 --> 00:46:05,720
that comes from the same root as fiction

1138
00:46:13,220 --> 00:46:09,510
this is an obviously invented graph and

1139
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:13,230
of course Owen of vine accepted this as

1140
00:46:18,319 --> 00:46:15,450
fact and trumpeted it all over his page

1141
00:46:22,099 --> 00:46:18,329
in his kind of triumphant pathetic way

1142
00:46:24,140 --> 00:46:22,109
that he does and so a few of us called

1143
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:24,150
it out and said look this is an obvious

1144
00:46:28,730 --> 00:46:26,970
fake and here's why and he said well

1145
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:28,740
people have different takes on reality

1146
00:46:31,010 --> 00:46:29,940
and sometimes some of them approximately

1147
00:46:33,500 --> 00:46:31,020
match

1148
00:46:37,490 --> 00:46:33,510
ealthy to me the graph is real to you

1149
00:46:40,010 --> 00:46:37,500
it's fake to each his own apparently

1150
00:46:42,530 --> 00:46:40,020
what the things going on inside Irwin's

1151
00:46:45,470 --> 00:46:42,540
head are his special reality and that

1152
00:46:47,060 --> 00:46:45,480
applies to everyone else I just think of

1153
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:47,070
that Simpsons episode where you see

1154
00:46:52,610 --> 00:46:49,290
inside bright homers brain and there's a

1155
00:46:54,140 --> 00:46:52,620
donkey with a fly buzzing around I don't

1156
00:46:57,340 --> 00:46:54,150
want to look inside doin spray I don't

1157
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:57,350
know what's in that both commands crazy

1158
00:47:01,040 --> 00:46:59,280
yeah this is the sort of thing this

1159
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:01,050
happens quite a lot this is the most

1160
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:03,510
obvious fake website again I've got it

1161
00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:05,490
blogged on my blog my colleagues are

1162
00:47:11,810 --> 00:47:08,760
idiots calm I don't we use colleagues at

1163
00:47:14,330 --> 00:47:11,820
the moment probably okay yeah yeah Jason

1164
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:14,340
you forgot to add the final sting in the

1165
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:16,290
tail of that story which was the woman

1166
00:47:22,220 --> 00:47:19,440
who made it up who created that's right

1167
00:47:25,580 --> 00:47:22,230
yeah in in paint I think it was anything

1168
00:47:28,430 --> 00:47:25,590
she did it in paint she went on to the

1169
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:28,440
website and she said I made it up I

1170
00:47:31,790 --> 00:47:30,330
thought it would have been obvious and

1171
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:31,800
she pointed out what you said like the

1172
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:34,110
factors core thing and she said and I

1173
00:47:40,370 --> 00:47:37,680
drew this island McCain and everyone I

1174
00:47:42,980 --> 00:47:40,380
don't know if he responded or not but

1175
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:42,990
she said she met she made a full

1176
00:47:47,090 --> 00:47:44,720
response about how she just made it up

1177
00:47:48,740 --> 00:47:47,100
that was brilliant it was quite superb I

1178
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:48,750
should update my blog post with that but

1179
00:47:51,980 --> 00:47:50,370
you could even find like the whole style

1180
00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:51,990
after comment but i could have just so

1181
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:53,910
point out i mean this i think is a good

1182
00:47:58,130 --> 00:47:55,530
point to give some advice to anybody who

1183
00:48:04,220 --> 00:47:58,140
wants to link these things use nofollow

1184
00:48:06,140 --> 00:48:04,230
ah you mean Isaac oh yeah yeah all right

1185
00:48:08,450 --> 00:48:06,150
now let's in a moment I want to talk

1186
00:48:10,490 --> 00:48:08,460
about a very interesting judgment that

1187
00:48:12,530 --> 00:48:10,500
was handed down and we'll have a comment

1188
00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:12,540
from Joe but before we get to that just

1189
00:48:16,790 --> 00:48:14,310
a reminder everybody that there you can

1190
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:16,800
subscribe for free to the skeptic zone

1191
00:48:26,330 --> 00:48:20,640
newsletter just visit w WC a petting zoo

1192
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:26,340
TV and so i can't subscribe today what

1193
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:29,970
yo special case and you'll find more

1194
00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:31,290
about the show some background

1195
00:48:35,660 --> 00:48:33,720
information links and extra reports

1196
00:48:38,090 --> 00:48:35,670
there and bits and pieces you might

1197
00:48:41,620 --> 00:48:38,100
enjoy also available on the skeptics own

1198
00:48:44,810 --> 00:48:41,630
website we have wallpaper for your

1199
00:48:49,340 --> 00:48:44,820
iphone or your iPod Touch skeptics on

1200
00:48:51,050 --> 00:48:49,350
wallpaper and skeptic zone ringtones yes

1201
00:48:57,310 --> 00:48:51,060
when your phone rings you can hear dr.

1202
00:49:06,740 --> 00:48:57,320
Rachel reports indeed or the theme music

1203
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:06,750
is giving me that's the new doctor IG

1204
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:10,290
theme yes so head to skeptics own TV and

1205
00:49:15,620 --> 00:49:13,170
find out more now it's really good did

1206
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:15,630
it get Stefan Stefan's version or rach's

1207
00:49:21,170 --> 00:49:18,960
rows in front us now I think I think

1208
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:21,180
I'll stick to the original the good old

1209
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:23,310
dr. AG reports music and you get the new

1210
00:49:29,730 --> 00:49:25,410
theme and the old theme the classic

1211
00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:32,160
actually people who people posting

1212
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:34,510
lindley been saying that these that the

1213
00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:36,490
skeptic zone theme now on their phone so

1214
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:37,750
when it rings she's thinks you've the

1215
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:40,930
podcasters family alright on to more

1216
00:49:46,410 --> 00:49:44,050
serious matters now Joe you've got the

1217
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:46,420
print out there from a lengthy PDF you

1218
00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:48,790
should be telling us about right Richard

1219
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:51,400
so I think a lot of listeners probably

1220
00:49:56,420 --> 00:49:53,200
would have heard about this case and I

1221
00:49:58,859 --> 00:49:56,430
think we've talked about it before in

1222
00:50:02,160 --> 00:49:58,869
that two thousand was that i think it

1223
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:02,170
was in 2005 a woman by the name of

1224
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:04,720
penelope dingle a lady who lived in

1225
00:50:12,390 --> 00:50:08,130
western australia died from metastatic

1226
00:50:15,690 --> 00:50:12,400
rectal cancer what what brought the case

1227
00:50:18,330 --> 00:50:15,700
to our interest was that when Penelope

1228
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:18,340
was diagnosed with her cancer it was

1229
00:50:25,410 --> 00:50:21,090
initially viewed by her doctors as a

1230
00:50:28,770 --> 00:50:25,420
potentially curable cancer Penelope had

1231
00:50:30,510 --> 00:50:28,780
already fallen into the hands of but by

1232
00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:30,520
the time she was diagnosed ended up well

1233
00:50:36,510 --> 00:50:32,710
and truly in the hands of a homeopath by

1234
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:36,520
the name of Francine scram and for a

1235
00:50:44,550 --> 00:50:41,710
period of about a year decide which she

1236
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:44,560
ultimately she decided not to have what

1237
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:46,000
was recommended as a treatment which

1238
00:50:48,930 --> 00:50:47,290
would have been a course of chemotherapy

1239
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:48,940
and radiotherapy and then ultimately

1240
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:55,450
surgery and Penelope decided to treat

1241
00:51:03,650 --> 00:50:59,440
her cancer with homeopathy under the

1242
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:03,660
care inverted commas of of this woman

1243
00:51:09,359 --> 00:51:07,450
Francine's grand now you know we've

1244
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:09,369
talked about this case quite a lot and I

1245
00:51:13,980 --> 00:51:10,930
have to say I've actually read the

1246
00:51:17,550 --> 00:51:13,990
coroner's report in full it's about a 40

1247
00:51:19,230 --> 00:51:17,560
page report and the coroner makes some I

1248
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:19,240
think very very important

1249
00:51:24,450 --> 00:51:23,200
recommendations in in the report but in

1250
00:51:25,770 --> 00:51:24,460
going through it there were there are a

1251
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:25,780
number of things that struck me and look

1252
00:51:30,450 --> 00:51:27,850
I say you know that the report is

1253
00:51:33,180 --> 00:51:30,460
available online and I would encourage

1254
00:51:35,250 --> 00:51:33,190
people to try and read it if they can

1255
00:51:37,620 --> 00:51:35,260
it's pretty harrowing and pretty

1256
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:37,630
distressing in fact i will link to that

1257
00:51:42,130 --> 00:51:39,410
report in the newsletter

1258
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:42,140
interested sure it makes for very

1259
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:45,770
distressing reading the Penelope Dingle

1260
00:51:54,329 --> 00:51:48,410
suffered immensely at the hands of this

1261
00:51:57,539 --> 00:51:54,339
woman and that you know I think come it

1262
00:52:01,180 --> 00:51:57,549
it has some very very interesting

1263
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:01,190
implications for how we view alternative

1264
00:52:06,849 --> 00:52:04,160
health practitioners this is a really

1265
00:52:08,799 --> 00:52:06,859
extreme example and and I accept that

1266
00:52:11,260 --> 00:52:08,809
not every homeopath out there is

1267
00:52:13,660 --> 00:52:11,270
necessarily going to put every person

1268
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:13,670
that comes into their care in danger but

1269
00:52:20,230 --> 00:52:15,890
I think certainly the danger is there

1270
00:52:21,609 --> 00:52:20,240
and you know what we've we've talked so

1271
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:21,619
much about some of the things that can

1272
00:52:26,279 --> 00:52:23,690
happen when you get involved in

1273
00:52:28,329 --> 00:52:26,289
alternative medicine in this way but

1274
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:28,339
i'll say i guess i'll just tell you

1275
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:29,930
about what the coroner has actually

1276
00:52:34,529 --> 00:52:33,170
recommended one of the things that that

1277
00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:34,539
came up as a result of this was that

1278
00:52:40,270 --> 00:52:37,250
Penelope Dingle was married to a man by

1279
00:52:42,730 --> 00:52:40,280
the name of Peter Dingle Oh dr. Peter

1280
00:52:46,319 --> 00:52:42,740
Dingle now Peter Dingle is not a medical

1281
00:52:50,740 --> 00:52:46,329
doctor he is a doctor of i think it was

1282
00:52:54,849 --> 00:52:50,750
environmental toxicology and he has a

1283
00:52:56,109 --> 00:52:54,859
background of being very an opposed to

1284
00:52:57,789 --> 00:52:56,119
conventional medicine and very

1285
00:52:58,990 --> 00:52:57,799
suspicious of conventional medicine and

1286
00:53:02,230 --> 00:52:59,000
has written a number of books himself

1287
00:53:04,420 --> 00:53:02,240
recommending various diets and so on and

1288
00:53:07,089 --> 00:53:04,430
ways of avoiding toxins in the

1289
00:53:09,250 --> 00:53:07,099
environment I'm kind of like Australia's

1290
00:53:10,930 --> 00:53:09,260
answer to Joseph Mercola his name he's a

1291
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:10,940
little bit but what I found interesting

1292
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:13,730
about the report was there was a lot in

1293
00:53:19,779 --> 00:53:15,440
the report that was more telling about

1294
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:19,789
this particular group of people and how

1295
00:53:23,230 --> 00:53:21,890
they got embroiled in this one of the

1296
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:23,240
things that came out which I thought was

1297
00:53:28,750 --> 00:53:26,450
quite interesting was that Peter Dingles

1298
00:53:30,819 --> 00:53:28,760
father apparently died of cancer and he

1299
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:30,829
blamed the chemotherapy for his father's

1300
00:53:35,019 --> 00:53:33,440
death so there in this instance there

1301
00:53:37,729 --> 00:53:35,029
are some

1302
00:53:40,329 --> 00:53:37,739
experiences that that these people had

1303
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:40,339
which have perhaps tainted their view of

1304
00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:43,410
medicine but that doesn't excuse what

1305
00:53:47,390 --> 00:53:45,630
happened it just at some level I guess

1306
00:53:49,609 --> 00:53:47,400
gives us a better understanding of how

1307
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:49,619
this all came about Francie and spraying

1308
00:53:56,019 --> 00:53:52,130
on the other hand I think it's just a

1309
00:54:00,229 --> 00:53:56,029
woman with a callous disregard for for

1310
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:00,239
well science and and really I don't

1311
00:54:04,130 --> 00:54:02,249
think has the capacity for understanding

1312
00:54:06,799 --> 00:54:04,140
what it was that she was dealing so you

1313
00:54:08,839 --> 00:54:06,809
do glean from the report that maybe she

1314
00:54:12,019 --> 00:54:08,849
hasn't quite got ahead in in our world

1315
00:54:15,019 --> 00:54:12,029
well I'll tell you a copy is it where

1316
00:54:16,579 --> 00:54:15,029
she's a homeopath well no but I mean the

1317
00:54:19,609 --> 00:54:16,589
thing is that the thing is that you know

1318
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:19,619
we come across for example doctors who

1319
00:54:23,509 --> 00:54:21,839
endorse homeopathy and who practice

1320
00:54:24,799 --> 00:54:23,519
homeopathy and actually have completed a

1321
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:24,809
medical training and should have an

1322
00:54:29,569 --> 00:54:26,400
understanding of the medic of Medicine

1323
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:29,579
yes I just mentioned something hmm since

1324
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:31,170
july two thousand ten it's been legal

1325
00:54:35,299 --> 00:54:32,729
for anyone's call himself doctor in

1326
00:54:37,609 --> 00:54:35,309
australia oh yeah absolutely yeah I'm a

1327
00:54:38,930 --> 00:54:37,619
doctor did you know so it's okay so you

1328
00:54:39,979 --> 00:54:38,940
can I get a clarification on this what

1329
00:54:41,479 --> 00:54:39,989
do you mean the health care

1330
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:41,489
practitioners active july two thousand

1331
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:43,890
and ten remove protection for Tim doctor

1332
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:46,319
anyone can call this I'm a doctor you're

1333
00:54:49,819 --> 00:54:48,089
a doctor but but there has to be a

1334
00:54:51,410 --> 00:54:49,829
qualifier there so for example the

1335
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:51,420
reason that chiropractors can call

1336
00:54:56,779 --> 00:54:54,089
themselves doctor they can do it as long

1337
00:55:01,180 --> 00:54:56,789
as I have a the end in brackets doctor

1338
00:55:03,709 --> 00:55:01,190
of chiropractic hang on so I so I

1339
00:55:05,420 --> 00:55:03,719
chiropractor guys that's a good

1340
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:05,430
generally speak but if I invent some new

1341
00:55:10,670 --> 00:55:07,650
form of magical medicine I can call

1342
00:55:13,370 --> 00:55:10,680
myself dr. Richard Saunders I exercise

1343
00:55:15,269 --> 00:55:13,380
that mean yeah do you have to say wasn't

1344
00:55:18,089 --> 00:55:15,279
aware that I need it even

1345
00:55:22,019 --> 00:55:18,099
to gauge where any case be go time and

1346
00:55:25,169 --> 00:55:22,029
history the fixes to go 24 25 minutes

1347
00:55:27,659 --> 00:55:25,179
I'm going to get very antsy toyota park

1348
00:55:28,890 --> 00:55:27,669
and ashbury thank you i want to leave

1349
00:55:32,309 --> 00:55:28,900
that i want to be the doctor of the

1350
00:55:34,289 --> 00:55:32,319
courtesy bastard can you can ask the

1351
00:55:36,749 --> 00:55:34,299
mayor's ask the mayor all you're the man

1352
00:55:40,439 --> 00:55:36,759
yeah I'm the man i I'm sorry Joe we've

1353
00:55:43,319 --> 00:55:40,449
completely funny i was always wear the

1354
00:55:44,849 --> 00:55:43,329
little chiropractors code of conduct or

1355
00:55:46,439 --> 00:55:44,859
whatever the documents call that they

1356
00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:46,449
have to put that qualifier at the end

1357
00:55:51,029 --> 00:55:48,400
but i don't even with psychologists they

1358
00:55:52,919 --> 00:55:51,039
have to actually i'm registered yet

1359
00:55:55,380 --> 00:55:52,929
there I wasn't aware that they literally

1360
00:55:56,699 --> 00:55:55,390
how you could be dr. Diane I'll just but

1361
00:55:59,929 --> 00:55:56,709
no you can't call yourself a

1362
00:56:02,819 --> 00:55:59,939
physiotherapist nobody can quite believe

1363
00:56:04,649 --> 00:56:02,829
Peter icon now I've read the act as well

1364
00:56:06,839 --> 00:56:04,659
but wikipedia summarizes it quite well

1365
00:56:08,189 --> 00:56:06,849
with the introduction of the national

1366
00:56:10,169 --> 00:56:08,199
health practitioner registration

1367
00:56:12,509 --> 00:56:10,179
registration legislation on july first

1368
00:56:15,209 --> 00:56:12,519
2010 the title doctor is not restricted

1369
00:56:17,009 --> 00:56:15,219
in any australian state instead they

1370
00:56:19,769 --> 00:56:17,019
protected the title medical practitioner

1371
00:56:22,589 --> 00:56:19,779
oh let's go back thank that's what i was

1372
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:22,599
told you so you asked me about whether

1373
00:56:28,289 --> 00:56:25,119
this woman was on the same planet as us

1374
00:56:33,100 --> 00:56:28,299
we're talking about a person who who's

1375
00:56:39,820 --> 00:56:37,780
in a state of unbelievable agony wasting

1376
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:39,830
away I mean penelope dingle by the time

1377
00:56:46,170 --> 00:56:42,250
she finally accepted medical care

1378
00:56:49,540 --> 00:56:46,180
weighed about 35 kilos Wow she was in

1379
00:56:52,060 --> 00:56:49,550
excruciating pain on a daily basis now

1380
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:52,070
Francine's grand according to the

1381
00:56:57,580 --> 00:56:55,090
coroner's report was embroiled in an

1382
00:56:59,440 --> 00:56:57,590
incredibly unhealthy relationship with

1383
00:57:02,830 --> 00:56:59,450
Penelope Dingle she would be on the

1384
00:57:05,650 --> 00:57:02,840
phone to her 12 times a day she had her

1385
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:05,660
on this whole regime of homeopathic

1386
00:57:12,070 --> 00:57:09,890
remedies Penelope Dingle would call her

1387
00:57:13,750 --> 00:57:12,080
in agony asking you know what she could

1388
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:13,760
do about the pain and Francine spraying

1389
00:57:16,750 --> 00:57:15,110
would basically tell her that she just

1390
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:16,760
had to stick to the homeopathic regime

1391
00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:19,280
this is Anna report absolutely it got to

1392
00:57:24,910 --> 00:57:21,710
the point where when when they finally

1393
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:24,920
admitted her to Fremantle hospital with

1394
00:57:31,180 --> 00:57:27,760
an acute bowel obstruction in

1395
00:57:34,420 --> 00:57:31,190
unbelievable pain basically on the verge

1396
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:34,430
of a if they hadn't have done something

1397
00:57:38,410 --> 00:57:35,810
about it within 24 hours she would have

1398
00:57:41,260 --> 00:57:38,420
died she finally accepted medical care

1399
00:57:42,970 --> 00:57:41,270
and they actually did operate on her and

1400
00:57:46,620 --> 00:57:42,980
she did actually end up going on to have

1401
00:57:48,790 --> 00:57:46,630
radiotherapy but it was palliative care

1402
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:48,800
Francine screen was in the background

1403
00:57:54,370 --> 00:57:51,890
the entire time saying no don't have a

1404
00:57:56,920 --> 00:57:54,380
surgery you have to take the homeopathic

1405
00:57:59,410 --> 00:57:56,930
remedies if you have the surgery I can't

1406
00:58:01,270 --> 00:57:59,420
treat you any more if you if you listen

1407
00:58:03,460 --> 00:58:01,280
to anyone tell you that you shouldn't be

1408
00:58:06,250 --> 00:58:03,470
on this treatment I can't treat you any

1409
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:06,260
more so good LP dingle was incredibly

1410
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:07,490
vulnerable and was really under the

1411
00:58:11,260 --> 00:58:08,930
thumb of this woman and Peter Dingle

1412
00:58:13,390 --> 00:58:11,270
went along with them in many ways

1413
00:58:15,790 --> 00:58:13,400
endorsing what was going on what was

1414
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:15,800
made even worse was the fact that when

1415
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:19,210
Penelope Dingle first went to see the

1416
00:58:25,390 --> 00:58:22,010
surgeon who initially advised her

1417
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:25,400
professor Cameron Patel who is a highly

1418
00:58:30,940 --> 00:58:29,330
regarded surgeon she was actually open

1419
00:58:33,580 --> 00:58:30,950
to the idea of conventional medicine she

1420
00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:33,590
was not you know she actually chose him

1421
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:36,110
as a surgeon based on his reputation she

1422
00:58:39,940 --> 00:58:37,730
was open to the idea of having her

1423
00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:39,950
cancer treated but she was already

1424
00:58:45,820 --> 00:58:43,040
involved with his homeopathic as time

1425
00:58:48,010 --> 00:58:45,830
went on she hurt her confidence in the

1426
00:58:49,870 --> 00:58:48,020
medical profession and having her cancer

1427
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:49,880
treated in that way was systematically

1428
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:52,010
eroded by this woman and by her husband

1429
00:58:57,370 --> 00:58:55,010
eroded under mine absolutely she ended

1430
00:58:59,800 --> 00:58:57,380
up consulting in two other doctors who

1431
00:59:02,860 --> 00:58:59,810
one of whom endorsed the homeopathy the

1432
00:59:04,660 --> 00:59:02,870
other who was prescribing vitamin C

1433
00:59:06,970 --> 00:59:04,670
injections and some other weird

1434
00:59:08,590 --> 00:59:06,980
treatments now I think what's really

1435
00:59:11,020 --> 00:59:08,600
important though is to actually have a

1436
00:59:14,380 --> 00:59:11,030
look at what the coroner said and what

1437
00:59:16,180 --> 00:59:14,390
he commented on was um most of all if I

1438
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:16,190
can just read this quickly he talked

1439
00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:17,930
about informed consent and he said that

1440
00:59:21,670 --> 00:59:20,300
this this case is highlighted the

1441
00:59:24,430 --> 00:59:21,680
importance of patients suffering from

1442
00:59:26,620 --> 00:59:24,440
cancer making informed sound decisions

1443
00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:26,630
in relation to their treatment in this

1444
00:59:31,030 --> 00:59:28,400
case the deceased paid a terrible price

1445
00:59:32,410 --> 00:59:31,040
for poor decision-making unfortunately

1446
00:59:34,810 --> 00:59:32,420
the deceased was surrounded by

1447
00:59:36,460 --> 00:59:34,820
misinformation and poor science although

1448
00:59:38,290 --> 00:59:36,470
her treating surgeon and mainstream

1449
00:59:40,540 --> 00:59:38,300
general practitioner provided clear and

1450
00:59:41,830 --> 00:59:40,550
reliable information she received mixed

1451
00:59:44,170 --> 00:59:41,840
messages from a number of different

1452
00:59:46,150 --> 00:59:44,180
sources which caused her to initially

1453
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:46,160
delay necessary surgery and ultimately

1454
00:59:51,750 --> 00:59:47,930
decide not to have surgery until it was

1455
00:59:53,950 --> 00:59:51,760
too late he then goes on to talk about

1456
00:59:58,660 --> 00:59:53,960
alternative medical practitioners and

1457
01:00:01,150 --> 00:59:58,670
and you know he does it the a woman by

1458
01:00:03,070 --> 01:00:01,160
the name of Sylvia Sylvia noi noi ba her

1459
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:03,080
i think it is from the australian home

1460
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:06,650
homeopathic association says that the

1461
01:00:09,610 --> 01:00:08,090
association has attempted to provide

1462
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:09,620
accountable structures to ensure that

1463
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:11,330
homeopathic practitioners are qualified

1464
01:00:14,350 --> 01:00:12,770
and have medical and professional

1465
01:00:16,510 --> 01:00:14,360
standards which would provide a

1466
01:00:19,870 --> 01:00:16,520
safeguard to consumers you should see

1467
01:00:21,700 --> 01:00:19,880
the faces around the room now what he

1468
01:00:23,380 --> 01:00:21,710
says well what he says is I have serious

1469
01:00:25,270 --> 01:00:23,390
reservations about any effort to

1470
01:00:27,340 --> 01:00:25,280
register or otherwise legitimize

1471
01:00:29,410 --> 01:00:27,350
homeopathy or other similar alternative

1472
01:00:30,580 --> 01:00:29,420
forms of medicine while I do not agree

1473
01:00:32,410 --> 01:00:30,590
with the proposition that such

1474
01:00:34,630 --> 01:00:32,420
alternative medical raising regime

1475
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:34,640
should be outlawed unless and until

1476
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:36,410
their supporters can provide appropriate

1477
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:38,930
and sufficient sciencebase any apparent

1478
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:40,730
legitimization of these regimes could

1479
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:42,110
provide mixed messages were vulnerable

1480
01:00:47,260 --> 01:00:43,970
and often desperate cancer sufferance

1481
01:00:48,670 --> 01:00:47,270
sufferers so his recommendation is that

1482
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:48,680
the Commonwealth and state departments

1483
01:00:50,860 --> 01:00:50,450
of health review the legislative

1484
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:50,870
framework

1485
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:52,010
grenade complementary and alternative

1486
01:00:56,140 --> 01:00:54,770
medicine practitioners and practices

1487
01:00:57,940 --> 01:00:56,150
with a view to ensuring that there are

1488
01:00:59,290 --> 01:00:57,950
no mixed messages provided to vulnerable

1489
01:01:01,060 --> 01:00:59,300
patients and that science-based medicine

1490
01:01:05,590 --> 01:01:01,070
and alternative medicine are treated

1491
01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:05,600
differently wow that's really good yeah

1492
01:01:09,580 --> 01:01:07,310
the funny commonwealth government would

1493
01:01:11,470 --> 01:01:09,590
take notice of that kind of thing yeah

1494
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:11,480
we would pour obsessed like nonsense

1495
01:01:16,420 --> 01:01:13,690
legislation why isn't this woman in jail

1496
01:01:18,340 --> 01:01:16,430
where's ash in jail well what was her

1497
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:18,350
punishment I don't know if I don't know

1498
01:01:25,420 --> 01:01:21,200
yet what how she's a koala corner no

1499
01:01:26,770 --> 01:01:25,430
it's not cornichons um punish an iconic

1500
01:01:28,450 --> 01:01:26,780
come on but if you're a medical doctor

1501
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:28,460
in this country and you do that you get

1502
01:01:33,310 --> 01:01:31,490
struck off there's no this is the reason

1503
01:01:34,990 --> 01:01:33,320
why that H Triple C in New South Wales

1504
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:35,000
started the alternative practitioners

1505
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:38,210
act in August 2008 so that these people

1506
01:01:40,750 --> 01:01:39,530
could be prosecuted because they

1507
01:01:42,850 --> 01:01:40,760
currently fall through the cracks

1508
01:01:45,310 --> 01:01:42,860
because there's nobody to but the

1509
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:45,320
homeopath you know what did she do wrong

1510
01:01:49,210 --> 01:01:47,090
as far as I'm yep at least insane she

1511
01:01:52,780 --> 01:01:49,220
did what every hungover does give bad

1512
01:01:57,460 --> 01:01:52,790
advice I mean it says that's it yeah I

1513
01:01:59,410 --> 01:01:57,470
would chief well died as a result of

1514
01:02:01,300 --> 01:01:59,420
what she said but you should know the

1515
01:02:03,430 --> 01:02:01,310
result maybe we accept for me everything

1516
01:02:05,350 --> 01:02:03,440
table I r you pass say that she didn't

1517
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:05,360
behave in accordance hope you're perfect

1518
01:02:09,340 --> 01:02:07,610
but but the thing is they only say

1519
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:09,350
because a person died not because she

1520
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:10,850
did anything different to what everybody

1521
01:02:15,070 --> 01:02:12,410
yeah they're not going to change their

1522
01:02:17,050 --> 01:02:15,080
practices no course not well Joe there

1523
01:02:19,390 --> 01:02:17,060
was one part of the transcript that I

1524
01:02:22,180 --> 01:02:19,400
read where the judge said that basically

1525
01:02:23,860 --> 01:02:22,190
he called spray and a liar he did said

1526
01:02:26,350 --> 01:02:23,870
he could not trust her as a witness or

1527
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:26,360
something yeah I have that yeah I got

1528
01:02:31,420 --> 01:02:28,130
that highlighted Joe monks with all the

1529
01:02:35,020 --> 01:02:31,430
other half lights how badly was it he

1530
01:02:36,700 --> 01:02:35,030
says here haha delicious mrs. crane

1531
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:36,710
claimed that she did not purport to

1532
01:02:40,060 --> 01:02:38,570
treat the disease cancer and said that

1533
01:02:42,250 --> 01:02:40,070
she had no knowledge that the deceased

1534
01:02:44,050 --> 01:02:42,260
had a belief that she was advising that

1535
01:02:46,690 --> 01:02:44,060
homeopathy could provide a cure for

1536
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:46,700
cancer I do not accept this plan by mrs.

1537
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:49,130
Graham sprayin whom I do not generally

1538
01:02:56,210 --> 01:02:51,810
regard to be a witness of truth

1539
01:02:59,030 --> 01:02:56,220
that's she's here that he sees about 30

1540
01:03:02,270 --> 01:02:59,040
see her husband goes any news family um

1541
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:02,280
and now that n is it another house it

1542
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:04,050
was her sister and her sisters and that

1543
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:04,770
was actually something I found

1544
01:03:07,850 --> 01:03:06,210
interesting because I know Rachel we had

1545
01:03:09,830 --> 01:03:07,860
talked about this case in the past we've

1546
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:09,840
been a bit critical of her family

1547
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:11,130
because we had initially thought that

1548
01:03:17,510 --> 01:03:15,210
they would really endorsed homeopathy

1549
01:03:20,030 --> 01:03:17,520
and I don't know whether they were just

1550
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:20,040
maybe casual users of it in the way that

1551
01:03:31,610 --> 01:03:29,490
you know some subjects in the way that

1552
01:03:33,110 --> 01:03:31,620
some person just goes up and buys a a

1553
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:33,120
bat flower remedy from the chemist

1554
01:03:36,140 --> 01:03:34,890
thinking that they're just buying you

1555
01:03:39,470 --> 01:03:36,150
know what I mean as opposed to someone

1556
01:03:41,870 --> 01:03:39,480
who's a dedicated you know only auntie

1557
01:03:44,090 --> 01:03:41,880
medical person any of that remedy for me

1558
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:44,100
they actually they actually were her

1559
01:03:48,980 --> 01:03:45,810
family was completely unaware of her

1560
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:48,990
diagnosis Peter Dingle and and Penelope

1561
01:03:55,370 --> 01:03:50,970
think actually kept the diagnosis secret

1562
01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:55,380
from the family until really late in her

1563
01:03:58,580 --> 01:03:57,330
in her illness they told it the told the

1564
01:04:02,210 --> 01:03:58,590
family that she had ulcerative colitis

1565
01:04:03,620 --> 01:04:02,220
and and the family were horrified when

1566
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:03,630
they saw it was happening and tried to

1567
01:04:09,410 --> 01:04:05,970
get her to have have treatment but she

1568
01:04:10,910 --> 01:04:09,420
refused so the joy it was only and I

1569
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:10,920
recall this when I was reading the

1570
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:12,450
reports happening at the time that it

1571
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:14,850
was only when she was told by doctors

1572
01:04:19,790 --> 01:04:17,730
that she would be vomiting feces and

1573
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:19,800
dying incredibly painful death that she

1574
01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:21,930
eventually succumbed to surgery that was

1575
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:23,520
that was on the day that she was

1576
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:26,130
admitted to Fremantle hospital with the

1577
01:04:31,340 --> 01:04:28,050
bowel obstruction and it was the the

1578
01:04:33,050 --> 01:04:31,350
surgical registrar told her that but she

1579
01:04:34,910 --> 01:04:33,060
had been on the phone to Francine screen

1580
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:34,920
at the same time and was actually

1581
01:04:43,340 --> 01:04:38,450
tossing up between the advice of this

1582
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:43,350
I'm sorry absolute don't be sorry

1583
01:04:49,100 --> 01:04:47,610
and don't be sorry i I just I can't help

1584
01:04:52,370 --> 01:04:49,110
thinking of the term what's the harm

1585
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,380
that right now I have this lateral

1586
01:04:56,890 --> 01:04:55,200
problem solving mind isn't assisted

1587
01:05:00,340 --> 01:04:56,900
suicide still illegal in

1588
01:05:03,310 --> 01:05:00,350
Western Australia say dr. Pettingill

1589
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:03,320
interesting by your side interesting

1590
01:05:07,690 --> 01:05:05,690
point interesting point what a what a

1591
01:05:10,420 --> 01:05:07,700
sad state of affairs Joan thank you for

1592
01:05:12,220 --> 01:05:10,430
bringing that to our attention and you

1593
01:05:18,270 --> 01:05:12,230
and I think you and dr. Riccio both read

1594
01:05:23,230 --> 01:05:21,310
struggled through but about half of it

1595
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:23,240
and I haven't I'm going to read all of

1596
01:05:27,850 --> 01:05:25,250
it but i must say that knowing that

1597
01:05:31,090 --> 01:05:27,860
rectal cancer is known to be one of the

1598
01:05:33,610 --> 01:05:31,100
more painful cancers some more somewhere

1599
01:05:38,140 --> 01:05:33,620
along the line of bone cancer didn't

1600
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:38,150
help when reading this cancer i know

1601
01:05:42,730 --> 01:05:40,490
i've seen it from close by what it does

1602
01:05:45,580 --> 01:05:42,740
to someone and i can't imagine not

1603
01:05:49,810 --> 01:05:45,590
having any pain medication or anything

1604
01:05:52,750 --> 01:05:49,820
like that absolutely horrifying it is

1605
01:05:55,330 --> 01:05:52,760
that not a happy story but I'm glad that

1606
01:05:58,930 --> 01:05:55,340
the coroner made a very strong and

1607
01:06:00,880 --> 01:05:58,940
decisive judgment in this case now

1608
01:06:03,370 --> 01:06:00,890
before we go before we go a big shout

1609
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:03,380
out to our good friend Maynard who can't

1610
01:06:06,910 --> 01:06:05,450
be with us tonight and folks if you want

1611
01:06:10,270 --> 01:06:06,920
to say hello to Maine out and check out

1612
01:06:13,690 --> 01:06:10,280
his website head to Maynard dot-com dot

1613
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:13,700
a you where you can see some of his

1614
01:06:18,220 --> 01:06:16,160
videos and his podcasts and bits and

1615
01:06:19,870 --> 01:06:18,230
pieces so high may not sorry you can't

1616
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:19,880
be with us tonight but I'd like to thank

1617
01:06:24,130 --> 01:06:22,490
those who could be with us tonight Diane

1618
01:06:25,660 --> 01:06:24,140
lovely to see you as always thank you

1619
01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:25,670
for coming by thank you so much for to

1620
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:28,310
Iran thank you thanks for having me mr.

1621
01:06:32,470 --> 01:06:30,410
Joe thank you Richard sorry I brought

1622
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:32,480
such a grim tale oh that's all right we

1623
01:06:35,950 --> 01:06:34,730
need to hear these things drunk and mad

1624
01:06:39,070 --> 01:06:35,960
man you're not drugged and you're not

1625
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:39,080
mad no yeah I will be layer thanks dr.

1626
01:06:44,230 --> 01:06:42,050
Richard of course and thank you doctor

1627
01:06:46,089 --> 01:06:44,240
dr. Rachel demo thank you Richard since

1628
01:06:50,049 --> 01:06:46,099
your doctor already i can put another

1629
01:07:13,080 --> 01:06:50,059
yeah well whatever i don't--all next

1630
01:07:18,430 --> 01:07:15,700
now on Belfast FM we turn to the person

1631
01:07:20,500 --> 01:07:18,440
lads easygoing and confident skeptic

1632
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:20,510
seeks other critical thinkers for fun

1633
01:07:24,940 --> 01:07:22,850
laughter and good times must be willing

1634
01:07:26,830 --> 01:07:24,950
to apply logic liberally and a good

1635
01:07:28,810 --> 01:07:26,840
listener expects something new and

1636
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:28,820
interesting every month come on meet me

1637
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:30,890
in Belfast in Northern Ireland if this

1638
01:07:36,370 --> 01:07:32,810
sounds like you check out my profile on

1639
01:07:48,879 --> 01:07:36,380
Belfast skeptics calm music by Kevin

1640
01:07:54,619 --> 01:07:51,589
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1641
01:07:57,549 --> 01:07:54,629
zone and as ever I hope the show keeps

1642
01:08:00,769 --> 01:07:57,559
you company on those long night shifts

1643
01:08:02,449 --> 01:08:00,779
those long walks with the dog maybe the

1644
01:08:06,199 --> 01:08:02,459
drives across the countryside you're

1645
01:08:08,449 --> 01:08:06,209
doing or commuting to work in fact use

1646
01:08:10,249 --> 01:08:08,459
my psychic powers now I'm seeing one of

1647
01:08:13,849 --> 01:08:10,259
our listeners sitting in a train right

1648
01:08:17,299 --> 01:08:13,859
now surrounded by people all going to

1649
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:17,309
work you're listening to us on your your

1650
01:08:22,700 --> 01:08:20,730
iPhone you see it's you yes I'm talking

1651
01:08:25,249 --> 01:08:22,710
about you and there is something to this

1652
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:25,259
psychic ability after all well we've got

1653
01:08:31,009 --> 01:08:27,690
more interviews lined up in the weeks to

1654
01:08:33,470 --> 01:08:31,019
come more investigations more reports

1655
01:08:35,689 --> 01:08:33,480
more of everything so I want to thank

1656
01:08:38,180 --> 01:08:35,699
you all for continuing to listen to the

1657
01:08:39,890 --> 01:08:38,190
zone and please let your friends and

1658
01:08:42,859 --> 01:08:39,900
family in your enemies and your cats and

1659
01:08:45,859 --> 01:08:42,869
dogs know about the show the more listen

1660
01:08:49,399 --> 01:08:45,869
as we get the more listeners will have

1661
01:08:52,759 --> 01:08:49,409
now about that but for now this is

1662
01:08:58,819 --> 01:08:52,769
Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney

1663
01:09:03,529 --> 01:08:58,829
Australia you've been listening to the

1664
01:09:07,339 --> 01:09:03,539
skeptic zone visit our website at www